Thinking about upgrading from Tormach to Haas a bunch of questions..

I currently have an old Tormach (serial number 64) I bough new 12 years ago.
I'm thinking I'd like to upgrade to Haas TM-1P or Minimill...

Several questions:
Any down side to a used machine?
What should one check on a used machine before purchasing one?

This is going in my already too full garage, so space is an issue.
How often does one need to get into the electrical cabinet?
Can I push it into the wall and then move it back out when one needs back side access?

I'm going to want rigid tap and 4th axis.
When shopping for used machines, how big a deal is it to add these features,
Impossible, or merely expensive? Does haas still sell upgrades for older used tools?

Do you need any control options from haas to use a tool setter or probe?
IE If I buy an ebay renishaw probe can I just plug it in and have it work?

Hi pbreed,

I'm a Fanuc guy and have never touched or seen in person a Tormach or pushed a single button on a Haas. So my experience lacks machine specific details, but is relevant to some of your questions regardless. Take what you will and throw the rest out as you see fit.

Q: "Any down side to a used machine?"

A: It's not new. Meaning who knows what it's seen or been through. And the words from the person standing there telling you about the machine, can be at any distance from the truth. It's up to you to feel that one out on your own. But don't get me wrong. Used will do. All of my machines are used, though admittedly the main ones are complete ground up rebuilds.

Q: "What should one check on a used machine before purchasing one?"

A: As much as possible. Bring a flashlight and a mirror. Absolutely have it under power. Run the spindle with warm up to full rpm. Try to run all axis at full rapid and listen for so-so noises. Or obvious ones. Do some test cuts if possible under the owners control. Pull back a way cover if they'll let you. Look at maintenance logs if available. Important to look at the shop around you that the machine was being used in. The shape of the shop is a good indication of the care taken on the machine. Look at manuals and parts books to see how it's made. That is if you can understand what you're looking at.

Personally I would never buy a machine sight unseen. I've been to enough auctions and spent enough time years ago with online dating, to know that the pictures and the real thing almost never match.

Q: "How often does one need to get into the electrical cabinet?"

A: Enough. Enough not to even dream about doing what your next question asks. Especially if as you say you're going to add probing and a 4th. You need space all around the machine for maintenance. Some sides more then others but the most you can spare, do spare it. You'll probably never regret it.

Q: "Can I push it into the wall and then move it back out when one needs back side access?"

A: Again no. Plus these machines need leveling which would need re-doing after each move. Not fun.

Q: "I'm going to want rigid tap and 4th axis.
When shopping for used machines, how big a deal is it to add these features?"

A: A biggish deal. Especially if the machine has no factory wiring pre installed. Rigid tap being the toughest of these two. Plus you may have to pay someone. Not sure how Haas is about this stuff compared to Fanuc. Adding a full forth is no walk in the park either. To do so you're going to have to know your stuff or be prepared to learn a shit ton about a shit ton of things.

Q: "Does haas still sell upgrades for older used tools?"

A: No clue. Ask them.

Q: "Do you need any control options from haas to use a tool setter or probe?"

A: Doubtful if you purchase the probe software or are a macro/probe programming monster. Though Haas may have control feature options that make the probe interfaces more intuitive or user friendly then stand alone installations.

Q: "If I buy an ebay renishaw probe can I just plug it in and have it work?"

A: Yes, but you don't just "plug them in." You install the system. I would not call it plug and play.

Unless you have waaay more time then money, try to buy what you want/need instead of adding on later. It's a lot of work.

Good luck with your search.

Dave

pbreed said:

I currently have an old Tormach (serial number 64) I bough new 12 years ago.
I'm thinking I'd like to upgrade to Haas TM-1P or Minimill...

( well a tm or mini mill are a big step up from a tormach I would go for a VF 1 or vf2 mill)

Several questions:
Any down side to a used machine?

( most haas machines drop about 2K a year in value over 10 years, So why buy used and loose 20K when you can buy new and still only loose 20K ?)



What should one check on a used machine before purchasing one?

(for the most part machine show have they have been used ,,, if there dirty and banged up on the visual check there the same mechanically )

This is going in my already too full garage, so space is an issue.
How often does one need to get into the electrical cabinet?

(use the area behind the machine to store stuff ,, moving them can be a bitch but moving the junk you store there is easy)

Can I push it into the wall and then move it back out when one needs back side access?

I'm going to want rigid tap and 4th axis.

( buy a machine with tapping and all ready wired for 4th. you can add them but there about $3,500 each with install )
When shopping for used machines, how big a deal is it to add these features,
Impossible, or merely expensive? Does haas still sell upgrades for older used tools?

Do you need any control options from haas to use a tool setter or probe?

( same as Tapping and 4th ,, if you need it buy a used machine with it ... its WAY cheaper )

IE If I buy an ebay renishaw probe can I just plug it in and have it work?

Click to expand...

( you have to get the software from Haas turned on to use probes, not cheap at all )


Hope that helps some ,,, Bottom line is your going to spend about 2K a year to own a Haas, new or used . So why buy used unless that is all you can put out of pocket for one.

If you want to go user , then don`t buy crappy looking machine unless you want a crappy machine.

Buy a used machine with the features you want or need ,,, Adding them to a used machine adds to the price fast and you would be better off buying new at that point.

I agree if your gonna buy used make sure it is clean and has the big color display. 10k spindle, Probing, HSM, remote jog, auger are all nice. You don’t want to add that later.


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Having some experience with a Tormach. An owner/operator/restorer of a vintage Hass and several other Haas mills I will weigh in.
DO NOT BUY UNSEEN AND UNTOUCHED unless through someone you have absolute trust in.

Ideally find one under power and at location it was run. Have them run a program even without tooling or material, have them run the options you want. Watch and listen to it. Bring a bright pocket flashlight, inspection mirror and a large size paint stir stick and a rag.

It's like buying a used car, look at it, move things around, smell it, trust your senses

1)Check the air filter/water trap - Look like it was filled with rusty sewer water? Thank them for their time and walk away.
They don't care about the smallest detail of maintenance, if the machine is not dead, it's dying.

2)General cleanliness - Coolant look nasty, windows hardly visible thru? That's not a deal breaker but will take time and some materials to remedy. Use the paint stick to dip into the sump straight in, does it hit bottom or feel like a bed of mud and gravel, stir a bit with tip on bottom, see what floats up, look at the stick before you wipe it off. Again not the worst but an indication of the care and feeding of the machine and lots of work to make right.

3)Way covers - Big dents and gouges, torn wipers, rust. All repairable but a clue to how the machine was cared for. Paint may be gone, it's hit or miss,some older Haas machines had very bad paint quality, look for physical damage from flying tools or parts. If the machine was used at all there will be something here or there.

4) Table - Gouges, dings rust marks? It can be pretty well stained, dings and diviots can be dressed and it be useful. A large aluminum fixture plate can be either keeping it perfect or destroying it, depends on the preparation at assembly.

5)Spindle - use the flashlight and mirror to look up into the taper, a little staining is fine but any large divot and gouges are suspect. Look at the tooling used if available, nasty tooling = nasty spindle. An easy $5k expense.

6)Tool shuttle - Grab at it with both hands and try to move around, should be some amount of play but not too sloppy. Look for stuck open doors.

.. there is much more but these are the basics, quality of the machine is proportional to the price and in most cases fair value.

My machine had most of the negatives I have shown you, it actually had no air regulator at all but it powered up, axis moved and the spindle looked good and for the year had low hours. I got it for a very good price and mostly labor has brought the old girl to be very fine machine. There is little that you cannot repair yourself with time and study.

Good Luck!

Hi pbreed,

Two small tidbits and one reiteration to what I said earlier.

Probing needs a skip signal input connection to the control somewhere. If none available you've got a problem.

Among other things, a 4th axis install has a minimum of four multi-pin connections that will need to be made at some point. 2 each for 4th axis to control and two control to servo amp. (Can be the opposite order of that also) You're screwed if your control is not setup or pre-wired for this. Let alone all the buttons on the control panel need to be there.

To reiterate. Try to get what you want from the get go. You don't need the actual 4th axis or probe head(s)at the time of purchase, but the machine should be ready to accept all of it without fuss. Good luck.

Dave

4th axis will cost a few grand for haas to unlock the software and send you the required hardware. A little bit of work if you know your way around it

Ridged tapping is as simple as a phone call and credit card number (provide serial #) thru will give you a code to unlock it. Hardware should be factory installed. Call prior to purchase and verify the hardware is there If it's an older machine.

I've purchased 3 haas machines used.
If you got the cash new is great, but I would not discourage used as you can find good machines at half price!

Rule #1: do not even consider a machine older than 2008. If it has an analog spindle-load meter? Walk away.

If you buy HAAS with an un-supported control, and the main processor fails, HAAS will steal $20k from you to get it back up and running.

Odds are it wont fail. Tons of these machines still running out there. But, I am not a gambling man.
And, if one day you find the odds were against you, you will be pretty much screwed.

wheelieking71 said:

Rule #1: do not even consider a machine older than 2008. If it has an analog spindle-load meter? Walk away.

If you buy HAAS with an un-supported control, and the main processor fails, HAAS will steal $20k from you to get it back up and running.

Odds are it wont fail. Tons of these machines still running out there. But, I am not a gambling man.
And, if one day you find the odds were against you, you will be pretty much screwed.

Click to expand...

Well, you can yell at me all you want after reading this post. F--ing go ahead!

I am sick and tired of the negative attitude on this Haas forum toward older machines. There are thousands upon thousands of older Haas machines out here making money everyday for their owners. My 96 and 97 VF-2's make me enough every few months to buy a new one, but I keep them and just plugging away putting the money in MY pocket. I'm building MY new building on MY property with profits from these two old machines. To tell people to stay away from them and put themselves in further debt without knowing they will have the work for them is crazy.

Every negative story is blown out of proportion and the good stories never get here because the owners are too busy making money to bother to post to this negative group.

Check out your damn machine before you buy it and spend what you can afford to loose if you go broke. Any good shop will have more invested in tooling and accessories than the machine itself anyway.

Rant off, but still mad as hell!

machineit2 said:

Well, you can yell at me all you want after reading this post. F--ing go ahead!

I am sick and tired of the negative attitude on this Haas forum toward older machines. There are thousands upon thousands of older Haas machines out here making money everyday for their owners. My 96 and 97 VF-2's make me enough every few months to buy a new one, but I keep them and just plugging away putting the money in MY pocket. I'm building MY new building on MY property with profits from these two old machines. To tell people to stay away from them and put themselves in further debt without knowing they will have the work for them is crazy.

Every negative story is blown out of proportion and the good stories never get here because the owners are too busy making money to bother to post to this negative group.

Check out your damn machine before you buy it and spend what you can afford to loose if you go broke. Any good shop will have more invested in tooling and accessories than the machine itself anyway.

Rant off, but still mad as hell!

Click to expand...

Maybe you are un-aware? I own 3 old HAAS machines myself.

I bet your view will change if the maincon board in one of your old HAAS's takes a poopie.
You think your "mad as hell" now? Wait and see how you feel the day you get that $20k quote to fix a failed $900 board.
And, you find yourself scrapping an otherwise good machine because its not worth sinking $20k in to.

I'm not saying don't buy a used HAAS. I'm saying: if your not a gambling man, don't buy a pre-2008 HAAS.

I'm not bashing the machines at all. They are fantastic! Totally awesome machines for anybody in the OP's position.
I am bashing HAAS's decision to "sunset" Coldfire-I and earlier controls. When it is a fact they did not "HAVE" to abandon them.
It was a choice. A business decision. And, a very poor one. From the end user's perspective.
When I browse used machines now, I tend to look at Fanuc equipped iron because I know the support is there.
The best machine in the world is no damn good without support.

pbreed, this checks all your boxes, and then some: Used Haas Super Mini Mill CNC Vertical Machining Center 1k RPM 4th Ready 27 | eBay

Machineit2
You should be mad as hell ... AT HAAS

Its not right that Haas just leaves every one of there customers screwed if they have a machine older than 10 years old and they have done it 100% at there choice. I was just told last month by my HFO that its not only the processor board but Haas added the video board to there list ..

For the most part I like Haas, I own 4 of them and make good money with them but they need to support there product for a lot longer than 10 years.

Sunseting board politics aside

What's the bigger gamble?
The chance a board goes. Or the chance the tormach will simply not be enough machine to make money?

They all have their place.
Light, portable low cost of entry (new)
Tormach is good, you can get a few fellas together and start in a basement.
If the parts are small with little metal removal they may be ideal

If you need the travel and hp (or may once the work starts coming in) you cannot get the smaller machine to compete.

My vote is in my shop with my 3 used well priced haas machines.

This is exactly why I recommend 2008-2015 HAAS machines. Anything Coldfire-II, and pre next-gen (early next-gen anyways) is a potentially great machine. HAAS does still have good support on the machines they do support. Parts are still easy. Coldfire-II is still hands down the best entry-level VMC control ever. Just watch out for that analog spindle-load meter. Steer clear of that feature, and, your good to go. If you already have one? (I have three!) Deal with it. Every day is a gamble anyways right?! But, given the choice? I will never buy another one unless the price is silly good.