St-10 or TL-1?

I don't know much about lathes and I'm a mill shop but I don't want turn customers away and have them going to shop around and lose them altogether so I'm considering a TL-1. After pricing out a TL-1 with options its so close to a bare bones ST-10 which offers way more. Initially I just need stuff for short run of parts and the TL-1 would get the job done but the ST-10 seems like it would open the door for a lot more future opportunity even though its more than I really want to spend now especially since its not the core of my business. I could get a fairly bare bones Tl-1 with maybe just the tail stock but it just feels like lots of money for something that needs me to sit there and change tools. Any thoughts or advise? With life as it is now I cant afford to lose customers.

My 1st lathe was a TL1. Didn’t have clue so learned turning on it. Then production runs. Long hours hand changing tools. But it made me enough to buy a Hardinge GS200 full cnc lathe. Still got it and consider it a must have for quick one of jobs mainly tool making Will be the last machine I sell.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think the only advantage a TL has is bed length. Everything else is going to suck if you do any volumes. Also, consider a ST20. It's 11k difference in price, but with an extra 6" or so of Z travel = 22" approx. Unless you know you have long turning (longer than that anyways), that should serve most of your needs. And 2.5" bar capacity...

I am primarily a turning shop, I plan to balance it out this coming year. I just bought two St-10's and they are great machines for what we do. I also have a Proto Trak TRL 1630 that we do quite a bit of work on. This machine has a Dorian 8 position turret on it.

The Dorian is a nice feature but it gets in the way at times and it can be difficult to see your work piece when doing small one off parts or when using the machine to do a repair job.

The TL is a great machine to brake into turning with but I think you will be kicking yourself down the road in the near future without some type of programmable turret as an option on the machine.

We program every machine here except the Trak using Master Cam. If you are programing off line I would bite the bullet and go with the ST-10. If you decide to go with the TL look at tool indexer options.

Make Chips Boys !

Ron

Radian51 said:

My 1st lathe was a TL1. Didn’t have clue so learned turning on it. Then production runs. Long hours hand changing tools. But it made me enough to buy a Hardinge GS200 full cnc lathe. Still got it and consider it a must have for quick one of jobs mainly tool making Will be the last machine I sell.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

So what makes the TL better on quick jobs? Iis it better because you can have a huge tooling library ready to go using a tool post? I plan to program off line only.

Unless you are only doing prototyping I would stay away from the TL1. My current shop has one that we use to make prototypes that would be inconvenient to make on a manual lathe. It works relatively well for that.

A couple things to note:
The 4 position tool changer was almost immediately removed because it was always in the way of the tailstock. Also you only have 4 positions if all your tools are OD tools, add a boring bar and you are down to 3 tools at best. With a manual tool post I can have as many tools set up as I have tool holders. Hearing from others the 8 position is even worse since due to the shape you can't turn anything longer that about 2 inches without running into the tool carousel. Using the tailstock is completely out of the question.

Despite what the manual says you cannot completely remove the tool changer. The software throws a fit if it doesn't detect the tool changer and it requires a haas tech to update the software to not need the it. Ours sits on the top of the machine with all the wiring deloomed so the machine still detects it.

The factory steady rest is close to useless, it sits on the same "ways" the tailstock uses which stop more than a foot short of the chuck so anything shorter than 14"-15" can't be held. I made a new base for the steady rest that clamps to the casting next to the linear rails so it can be set closer, it works but I am concerned about it moving or not getting set right and crashing the trucks the carriage rides on.

Keep in mind the TL are manual chucks and tailstocks too.

I had a tl-1, GT a small slantbed like the st-15 now

Used the tl to "find my market"
As it had a large work envelope (in oil country, lots of big stuff)
Narrowed down to parts that fit in a smaller envelope. It's a good do all low performance machine. A manual lathe would have sufficed if not for some fancier profiles the cnc opened up.

Tl is quick to chuck and drop a tool in the post. Vs a hyd chuck and wedge clamps.
Turns ok with large parts in tailstock.
Don't forget that bare bones st10 does not come with a tail stock

Lower power requirements, able to use single phase power. Reasonable torque.
Handy little machines to have around, but are overwhelmed pretty quickly if your busy. But if latje work picks up then buy the machine to fit the neiche better.

Try and find a used one? You can allways resell it.

Moral of the story. I did not love mine, but it made money and bought me what I needed. So if was good to me.

Stirling said:

I had a tl-1, GT a small slantbed like the st-15 now

Used the tl to "find my market"
As it had a large work envelope (in oil country, lots of big stuff)
Narrowed down to parts that fit in a smaller envelope. It's a good do all low performance machine. A manual lathe would have sufficed if not for some fancier profiles the cnc opened up.

Tl is quick to chuck and drop a tool in the post. Vs a hyd chuck and wedge clamps.
Turns ok with large parts in tailstock.
Don't forget that bare bones st10 does not come with a tail stock

Lower power requirements, able to use single phase power. Reasonable torque.
Handy little machines to have around, but are overwhelmed pretty quickly if your busy. But if latje work picks up then buy the machine to fit the neiche better.

Try and find a used one? You can allways resell it.

Moral of the story. I did not love mine, but it made money and bought me what I needed. So if was good to me.

Click to expand...

This probably makes the most sense to me in the end. I'm a garage shop and I'm already stretched on power with my mill and would need another phase converter as well. I may end up doing a tl and eventually upgrading to an st 15 or 20 with live tooling and other upgrades as my shop grows. I'll have to think about it more. The turret price is what kind kills it for me and brings it too close to St10 My main goal is to at least have reasonable turning capability so I can keep customers and maintain mill work. It seems the easiest market to penetrate into is few piece jobs because people don't really want it. I just know with my vf-2ssyt I never regretted having more machine then I needed.

Lazyman said:

I don't know much about lathes and I'm a mill shop but I don't want turn customers away and have them going to shop around and lose them altogether so I'm considering a TL-1. After pricing out a TL-1 with options its so close to a bare bones ST-10 which offers way more. Initially I just need stuff for short run of parts and the TL-1 would get the job done but the ST-10 seems like it would open the door for a lot more future opportunity even though its more than I really want to spend now especially since its not the core of my business. I could get a fairly bare bones Tl-1 with maybe just the tail stock but it just feels like lots of money for something that needs me to sit there and change tools. Any thoughts or advise? With life as it is now I cant afford to lose customers.

Click to expand...

Neither. Buy a good, used Okuma or Mazak.

Lazyman said:

This probably makes the most sense to me in the end. I'm a garage shop and I'm already stretched on power with my mill and would need another phase converter as well. I may end up doing a tl and eventually upgrading to an st 15 or 20 with live tooling and other upgrades as my shop grows. I'll have to think about it more. The turret price is what kind kills it for me and brings it too close to St10 My main goal is to at least have reasonable turning capability so I can keep customers and maintain mill work. It seems the easiest market to penetrate into is few piece jobs because people don't really want it. I just know with my vf-2ssyt I never regretted having more machine then I needed.

Click to expand...

I had the 4 position turret.
Hated it.
Interferes with tailstock, boring bar essentially takes 2 spots.
I used a multi flex quick change tool post. Let me have as many tool as I want.
If a tool changer was a must the tl is out of the question for me unless the z was absolutely nessisary and the machine was cheap (as above, used okuma crown?)

Not sure how much power u have, but I run both my machines on a phase perfect 355 (20hp) tied to a 240v 60amp single phase breaker. (15/20hp slant bed lathe, and haas vf2 10,000rpm 2009 I think they are a 15/20hp) Runs fine for Me so far.
Only had it tied this way for about 40 hours runbtime so far. No spindle loads over 70% continuous because of the type of work I'm putting through right now (small aluminum parts)
But bar fed lathe all day and hand fed mill as fast as I can all day.
Keep in mind that 60amp is only for the machines. No lights, compressor or anything on that breaker.
Phase perfect does call for a 100 plus amp breaker. But I've never tripped it and my amp clamp is not registering over 60amps , so whatever.

Stirling said:

I had the 4 position turret.
Hated it.
Interferes with tailstock, boring bar essentially takes 2 spots.
I used a multi flex quick change tool post. Let me have as many tool as I want.
If a tool changer was a must the tl is out of the question for me unless the z was absolutely nessisary and the machine was cheap (as above, used okuma crown?)

Not sure how much power u have, but I run both my machines on a phase perfect 355 (20hp) tied to a 240v 60amp single phase breaker. (15/20hp slant bed lathe, and haas vf2 10,000rpm 2009 I think they are a 15/20hp) Runs fine for Me so far.
Only had it tied this way for about 40 hours runbtime so far. No spindle loads over 70% continuous because of the type of work I'm putting through right now (small aluminum parts)
But bar fed lathe all day and hand fed mill as fast as I can all day.
Keep in mind that 60amp is only for the machines. No lights, compressor or anything on that breaker.
Phase perfect does call for a 100 plus amp breaker. But I've never tripped it and my amp clamp is not registering over 60amps , so whatever.

Click to expand...

I also have a perfect 355 20hp on 100 ample breaker. I have a 150amps dedicated to shop separate from house but the problem seems to be the neighborhoods transformer itself cant handle the surge very well and voltage drops during spindle ramps and when the compressor starts up. I was getting shut downs before when it all happened at the same time due to voltage drop. Seems to be good now that I changed the voltage wiring on the machine. If I skipped the turret on the TL it puts the price at a much more reasonable point. I think the value proposition isn't as good still but its like buying a truck or something. I don't want to buy used machines because I don't know enough about them to make sure they are in good shape. I rather just stick with Haas brand for now and keep things standardized.

In the same place, I’m need to make the change to cnc and I’ve been looking at the SL10, GT20 with the 8 place tool holder. I look at a TL2 but feel like it doesn’t give me much over HLV-H. I would still need to change tools by hand. Power is another worry, since I am a garage shop. The ST10 is out of my price change, even though I read in most cases you can sell them and not take a big hit.

Lazyman said:

So what makes the TL better on quick jobs? Iis it better because you can have a huge tooling library ready to go using a tool post? I plan to program off line only.

Click to expand...

Yes for each Dorian tool holder I have a tool offset programmed. Got 15 tool holders, boring parting turning and drill chuck.
If you make 1-5 parts it is fine. But each tool is changed by hand. Not easy for larger time pressure quantities. But perfect easy for setting up one-off. Very nice programming assistance on graphics. Enter dimensions for each operation and machine creates the full gcode. You can be turning within minutes after taking your drawing to the machine


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Radian51 said:

Yes for each Dorian tool holder I have a tool offset programmed. Got 15 tool holders, boring parting turning and drill chuck.
If you make 1-5 parts it is fine. But each tool is changed by hand. Not easy for larger time pressure quantities. But perfect easy for setting up one-off. Very nice programming assistance on graphics. Enter dimensions for each operation and machine creates the full gcode. You can be turning within minutes after taking your drawing to the machine


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

I got my TL-1 used (a 2006) and ASSumed it would have the quick code feature, apperently it became standard in 2007, like on the lathes in vocational trining i took in 2008. I may have kept it if it had that. I miss having a 3 jaw i can just scroll untill its grips and 20 quick post tools i can drop in and go, now every tirning job its moving around the hyd. chuck jaws and wedge clapms for turning tools.

Lazyman said:

I also have a perfect 355 20hp on 100 ample breaker. I have a 150amps dedicated to shop separate from house but the problem seems to be the neighborhoods transformer itself cant handle the surge very well and voltage drops during spindle ramps and when the compressor starts up. I was getting shut downs before when it all happened at the same time due to voltage drop. Seems to be good now that I changed the voltage wiring on the machine. If I skipped the turret on the TL it puts the price at a much more reasonable point. I think the value proposition isn't as good still but its like buying a truck or something. I don't want to buy used machines because I don't know enough about them to make sure they are in good shape. I rather just stick with Haas brand for now and keep things standardized.

Click to expand...

honestly with a TL, they are easy to buy used. there is nothing to them! check for ballscrew play, check for obvious abuse. turn a quick part if they will let you. done. its a spindle motor (just a motor) spindle (how does it sound, is the turned finnish smooth and round?) do the x/z position accuratly without backlash. DONE. i would not let usd scare you with such a basic lathe. they are more basic than a common manual lathe.

get a good tool post and chuck and your oof to the races, if your lucky it will come with lots of extras!!!! tooling aint cheap!

We have a 2018 TL2. They did a major design change around 2014. The new style tailstock works much better vs the old one. The Visual Programming System is nice and very capable. It won't make the most efficient code but for small quantities of parts, who cares? It's very quick to setup and program. It's about the same for one off parts as a manual lathe time wise but when you need to make 5 or 10 is when it really shines. I didn't get a turret with ours as my Haas rep talked me out of it. I'm glad he did. We have about 20 tools setup in holders. It's really quick and easy to just throw whatever we need on the tool post. With the variety of stuff we do, I would be constantly setting up tools in a turret.

This is not a production machine. We have made runs over 100 parts on it but usually little bushings. I've put two tool holders on the post at the same time to be able to not swap every tool. I do want to do a small gang tool setup that drops on the tool post. The big drawback with that is you still have to advance material manually unless you swap to a pneumatic chuck of some sort. Also ours only turns 1800 rpm so for small parts you end up much slower vs a turning center. I will say the 3" thru bore is really nice at times. One thing that I find really annoying is you have to reaim the coolant nozzle ever time you swap tools if you want coolant where it needs to be.

I forgot to mention, the TL2 will run off a 30 amp breaker single phase 220V.

Griffin said:

One thing that I find really annoying is you have to reaim the coolant nozzle ever time you swap tools if you want coolant where it needs to be.

I forgot to mention, the TL2 will run off a 30 amp breaker single phase 220V.

Click to expand...

Ive seen people modify their tool posts for through coolant. i think Dorean makes a through post manual clamp and holders. that would be sweet. the ability to have lots of preset tools makes this style machine shine for quick jobs. and id dake a bigger bore with lower rpm anyday for odd jobs. rather go slower than not at all (im in oil country, bigger the bore the better)

the low power requirment is great, is also super nice that the TL and TM machines can be moves with a standard pallet jack!

As a new ST10 owner I would say neither and if going toolroom then go Prototrak.

My ST10 has been apart more times than I care to mention trying to find a fault.

Wait around 5-7 days for breakdowns to be fixed.

Machine has 40 hours and now screen is playing up.

Go with a base setup doosan lynx for a production machine.

I think its two schools of thought...Manual or CNC.

I started with manuals and they can do it all, very versatile and your making chips in no time...but you will be tied to the machine. Multiples can be done using quick change tooling...holders can repeat nicely when YOU change them...provided not chips get under the adjusting knobs and stops.
Need to stop a job to run something else...no problem. Grab your chuck key to open up the jaws, reverse or dial in with a 4 jaw. Minutes your running another job.
Need to kinda put a chamfer on the end...bring up your tool and touch, small hand feed and done.

TL is kinda like that...quick, simple versatile. On a manual lathe you may have feed stops so you can walk away from machine and feed stops at the end of a cut. make a 2nd or 3rd roughing cut YOU have to crank handles and carefully come up to your final number. ON a TL, program the cut beginning to end finish pass and machine does it. NICE. Also the TL you can program radius, chamfers, curves and tapers...all doable on a manual...but labor intensive and never quite like a CNC flowing cut going from feature to feature.
Quick change tooling is a plus, change tool and hit go.
Mini turret- nicer yet for multiple operations with no intervention. But usually limited amounts of tooling. AND a TL gets in the way of itself easily. Think clearances...



NOW lets talk CNC lathe.
Chucks are mostly manual adjusting soft jaws that only move a small amount OR Collets which do not adjust. What to change a part size...remove the soft pads, find ones that are close to your size, bolt on, then cut the jaws so the part runs true. That can be 15-20 minutes...plus after so many changes you need new jaws.

Tools on a CNC tend to be generic, you program chamfers...so your not gonna run a quick edge break on a single part or two.

Now the benefits.

You bore the soft jaws or use a collet and your parts run dead on. No more indicating.

Clamp a blank piece in the CNC, set your tooling, program part and you can rough and finish turn, spot, drill bore, thread, groove, cut tapers knurls etc in one setup with no operator intervention...or limited on TIGHT tolerance parts.

Not manually changing tools prevents the wrong tool being put in...prevents chips from getting under stops so tools repeat extremely accurately.


Now perhaps the biggest difference...the enclosure. On a manual you have a pan under to catch chips, catch the coolant. You adjust your speeds and feeds close to the correct speeds and feed as possible. But often with open machines you bring down the speeds of the work turning as the correct speed would make a huge mess. Chips flying all over...if you use coolant that too goes everywhere. No enclosure means speeds and feeds get dialed back.

IN a CNC with enclosure you dial in your numbers and go...plus you get to FLOOD the part and tooling with coolant. Sure coolant is nice to add lubricity so tooling last longer, part size does not change due to heat...BUT the big big plus coolant flushes the chips away. Tools are no longer recutting chips.
Also when tools are programmed at the correct speeds and feeds, they last longer.


If your planning to dabble in turning go TL. If you plan on offering CNC turning go with a CNC. Different machines with a different purpose. I'm CNC but keep a couple manuals as they do different jobs best.