Standard vs SS spindle - different???
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    Default Standard vs SS spindle - different???

    Guys, does anyone know if there is a physical difference between the spindles on a plane-jane VF vs SS machines?

    Reason I'm asking is that I am contemplating to get a new VF2, which will be ( for the time being ) used mostly for AL work, but other SS, Ti and Inco parts
    will also be mixed on it.
    Won't be getting a gearbox machine ( have 2 already ), but would like to get as high RPM as possible ( new models have the 8K spindle ) and will be running
    near max for days on end.

    So, I don't really want to sacrifice torque by getting a 12K spindle, but also don't want to kill the standard spindle by running it full-out for a good amount of time.

    Is there anything special on the SS spindles? Bearings, mechanical construction, coupling etc etc?

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    If you go to int.haascnc.com, you can actually find torque values and stuff on Haas's mills. Comparing a VF2 and a VF2SS - HP and torque are the same. In fact, even a 15,000-RPM spindle has the same torque. All of them max out at 90 ft-lbs at 2000 RPM.

    Our VF4SS has tapped up to 7/8-9 in stainless steel and drilled 1" holes in tool steel with inserted drills. But it's also ran at 12,000 RPM for hours at a time, 3D'ing with an 1/8" ball end mill... which, with a regular 8100 or 7500-RPM spindle, would have taken 25 to 30% longer for the same chipload.

    Plus... it might sound scary, but, machines don't last forever. If ya hold on to them that long the competition will slowly begin to smoke you with newer technology. The much higher amount of productivity you could get with an SS (between the bigger tool changer, rapids and higher RPM) would more than make up for a $15,000 difference in price over, say, 5 years.

    It makes me wish we had more SS machines. We have a VF1 and VF3 from the mid-2000s, plain 7500 RPM spindle. The VF4 (granted, from 2012) can do things so much faster it's ridiculous. Basically if you're running aluminum, or doing any sort of surfacing - at 12,000 RPM vs. 7500 RPM, you can feed about 30% faster for the same chipload.

    I don't know why Haas even offers plain VFs anymore. Just seems like a waste.

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    if you are too worried about burning up a spindle you might look into using a spindle speeder in the 3:1 or 4:1 range to save some rpms on your spindle. not sure if it would actually help but worth looking at.

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    The 15k inline spindle option is the same as the 12k. We run our 12k spindle at 12k at least 80% of the time. We do run warm ups every day though.

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    Haas is lazy, you think they'll bother with two different spindles on new machines? I'm sure it's just a parameter change you're paying for. Just like all the control options. They're all there, it just needs to be activated. Like wifi on my UMC. You can see the addon card sitting right there on the control board with it's little blue light going, but we can't use it since it wasn't optioned when we bought it.

    One of our HFO's more experienced techs was here recently and told me the ball screws on the UMC vs UMC SS are identical physically. They just change the speed the servos run at. LOL.

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    Guys

    No 3D or HSM toolpaths here. This AL work is extrusions ( heavy ) with windows, slots, large holes and as large as 18mm threads.
    Smallest tool is 1/2", mostly 5/8 or 3/4.
    I get that the 12K vs 15K spindles are likely the same damn thing, but what about standard vs 12/15K?

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    A half inch tool in aluminum wants to spin around 13430 RPM according to Helical. I run my VF3-SS at 15K RPM for hours at a time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    I run my VF3-SS at 15K RPM for hours at a time.
    Sidenote:
    Ox, can you please point me to a GIF with a forehead planted in a palm please???

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    OK, I am now in a pissy mood ( due to outside reasons), so please everyone take it as such ....


    Quote Originally Posted by Job Shopper TN View Post
    Plus... it might sound scary, but, machines don't last forever. If ya hold on to them that long the competition will slowly begin to smoke you
    Seriously Mr.Shopper? Besides the lawnmower, chainsaw and the hedge-trimmer, how many machines do you own and have paid for?

    After that, please tell how your reply was somehow germain to the OP?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Sidenote:
    Ox, can you please point me to a GIF with a forehead planted in a palm please???
    I'm advocating that the OP get an SS model with the 15KRPM spindle. Anything less is leaving money on the table.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Anything less is leaving money on the table.
    Well then, imagine that I actually don't want the sidemount toolchanger!
    Not even on the plane-jane VF.

    And for the record. it ain't got a thing to do with price!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Well then, imagine that I actually don't want the sidemount toolchanger!
    Not even on the plane-jane VF.

    And for the record. it ain't got a thing to do with price!
    Could you elaborate on why?

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    Couple things.
    First, the time savings for what I do is not significant enough on the per-part basis.
    4 tools running on 10-12 or as many as 18 parts at the time.
    Cycle time of 20 minutes, the toolchange time is negligible.

    Second, the guys actually prefer the umbrella as they always see the tools to remove chips, and they also like to see the tool numbers match up with the pocket.
    And, since I rarely touch the thing anymore, ain't gonna push shit on them when it's not necessary. ( yes, they have all worked with sidemounts before )

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    Nonsense.
    Haas is not lazy.
    They are doing their very best to deliver the best possible product at the most competitive price.

    And I have actually met and talked with most of the top dogs making those decisions, many times.
    E.
    If Haas only makes 24 kW (40 hp) VFDs for the european/global market the marginal cost/unit might drop from 3000$ to 2000 $.
    Marginal cost of production, not real cost.
    The "*Real cost*" is EU and global safety certifications,
    + product line costs,
    + delivery pipeline costs,
    + additional support costs (very high) over 200+ global dealers, etc.
    +Costs of training all certified techs in 300 HFOs to know/understand new system.
    +Costs of adapting all old 300k+ machines globally, to the new system, some way. About 50% are ex-usa.

    E.
    There used to be about 9-11 spindles around 2011.
    The plan then was to go to about 3. IDK how it transitioned thereafter..

    E.
    If a user has a "better" spindle worth 8000$ vs 5000$ as their machine was sold with..
    Haas (other manufacturer) is NOT, at all, stealing the extra capacity from the user.
    Say higher potential rpm.
    Haas is making a better business decision in reduced overall costs in parts, spindles, sales, and support by having only "better" spindles made.
    This also well benefits the user of the 5000$ cost "cheaper" spindle, say 8000 rpm vs say 10.000 rpm.

    Because Haas then has only one spindle to stock/service/train and the increased volume and simplicity greatly enhance service and availability for *all* users, those using a 5k$ spindle and those using a 8k$ spindle.

    E. on real machines.
    The EU DT1 was sold as a 12 kW machine.
    Inside, it had a 40 hp/ 25 kW vector drive ie VFD.
    Pics on my phone.

    This does * not mean* Haas is stealing 13 kW from the users, but that it is economically better to only make/stock one identical VFD for all normal-range 40 Hp machines in vastly larger volumes.

    The much bigger more robust 40 hp//25 kW VFD will not heat or fail under 12 kW loads and will last for a long time -- practically forever in real terms.
    This is a benefit for all users of the DT type machines.
    And is a benefit for Haas, in better rep. for longevity under heavy use of DT type machines.
    And those types of machines are typically sold into heavy-use apps with continuous fast ops being done.

    --

    Disc:
    I *like* Haas.
    I have had nothing to do with them for 5+ years.
    But they exemplify the best of the US sales and service and customer-support culture.
    Best in the World.

    --
    I also fully understand the user frustration on heavy costs on stuff like wifi access.
    Personally I think some optional parts like the wifi are in error.
    Haas is simply wrong on it-wifi.
    And some other options. Imho, Ime.
    But it is very complex.


    Quote Originally Posted by thesidetalker View Post
    Haas is lazy, you think they'll bother with two different spindles on new machines? I'm sure it's just a parameter change you're paying for. Just like all the control options. They're all there, it just needs to be activated. Like wifi on my UMC. You can see the addon card sitting right there on the control board with it's little blue light going, but we can't use it since it wasn't optioned when we bought it.

    One of our HFO's more experienced techs was here recently and told me the ball screws on the UMC vs UMC SS are identical physically. They just change the speed the servos run at. LOL.

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    I would definitely bet that the 10k and 12k spindles are are exactly the same physically. In parameters, 12k RPM is listed as "purchased" on my SS machine. I'm sure its just a way to direct people into their SS machines, which is a shame, because I think the standard machine finder pitch ballscrews are much snappier acceleration. My SS stays in 50% rapids pretty much all the time anyways. Why? the time savings on most of my jobs is practically worthless at 100% rapids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazyman View Post
    I would definitely bet that the 10k and 12k spindles are are exactly the same physically. In parameters, 12k RPM is listed as "purchased" on my SS machine. I'm sure its just a way to direct people into their SS machines, which is a shame, because I think the standard machine finder pitch ballscrews are much snappier acceleration. My SS stays in 50% rapids pretty much all the time anyways. Why? the time savings on most of my jobs is practically worthless at 100% rapids.
    While I agree, the SS machines don't accelerate very fast (especially now that I own a Brother).
    I see significant reductions on some programs running @ 100% vs 50%. More tool-changes = greater reductions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Guys, does anyone know if there is a physical difference between the spindles on a plane-jane VF vs SS machines?

    Reason I'm asking is that I am contemplating to get a new VF2, which will be ( for the time being ) used mostly for AL work, but other SS, Ti and Inco parts
    will also be mixed on it.
    Won't be getting a gearbox machine ( have 2 already ), but would like to get as high RPM as possible ( new models have the 8K spindle ) and will be running
    near max for days on end.

    So, I don't really want to sacrifice torque by getting a 12K spindle, but also don't want to kill the standard spindle by running it full-out for a good amount of time.

    Is there anything special on the SS spindles? Bearings, mechanical construction, coupling etc etc?
    Scanning the responses, I don't think anyone has answered your questions regarding the differences of standard 8/10K vs 12/15K spindles.

    Primarily the 10K and less spindles use steel bearings
    12K and up spindles use ceramic bearings.

    Some of the new 10K and 8K spindles are inline spindles as are the 12K/15K spindles of the SS machines. The inline spindles will use a urethane coupling between the motor and spindle instead of belt driven like the standard 10K machine with gearbox.

    Hope this helps.

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    Haastec, Thank You!


    The new VF with the std 8K spindle is up and have been running for a month or so now.
    Though I did initially plan for it running mostly AL, it has spent the last 3 weeks in SST, naturally nowhere near it's max RPM...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Haastec, Thank You!


    The new VF with the std 8K spindle is up and have been running for a month or so now.
    Though I did initially plan for it running mostly AL, it has spent the last 3 weeks in SST, naturally nowhere near it's max RPM...
    A little late to the party I guess!
    Enjoy the new machine.


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