TM-1P vs MiniMill for a first machine

I'd love to say this topic is deader than a horse in a glue bottle but there seems to be only a tiny amount of info on any comparison here with the current generation of machines. Almost the only things I can find on the TM machines are from when they were un-enclosed and very different, so I'm looking for some opinions here. Maybe some other guys starting out can benefit from this info too.

I am an OEM for my own parts and have had too many issues sending out some machined parts I need. I did the math and found that my savings for just one of my parts pretty much covers the machine payment so I'm looking to bring a CNC mill into the shop. I originally was set on a MiniMill but the travels are almost painfully small. I hadn't ever seen a Toolroom Mill but now that is looking like the way to go with WAY more working space, and ability to open the side doors for very long parts, and a better enclosure, all for a minimal increase in floor space.

The info I have found out there, and opinions I've heard, seem to say the Mini is a more rigid machine. That doesn't really make sense to me because the TM seems like it has a wider spacing between the bearings and it's casting sits on the ground. What's the consensus here? I know guys rag on the Mini and TM for being floppy but really how are they for OEM work? I'm not trying to pin the spindle load all day. I'm not making money on job shop work. I've been mulling this over for a few weeks and I'm financially ready to pull the trigger. I need a machine that can make me parts without much babysitting.

The only requirements I have beyond the usual stuff are:
- Good interpolation accuracy. Needs to hold <.003" concentricity in a 2" bore. I'd prefer to not need to use a boring head for this.
- Not time-consuming to keep the machine happy. The coolant system in the Mini sounds like a nightmare?

Thanks!
Marcus

I don't have a TM but I've used them over the years, and I have a MM. Speaking purely of cutting performance, they're almost identical. The differences are mostly in the areas you mentioned (and are likely aware already). For a more general-purpose machine, the toolroom mills are a little more versatile because of the larger work envelope and different enclosure. However I find a Minimill to fit better with production items because it has fully-enclosed ways and less exposed internals, and the overall machine size is smaller so long as your workpiece fits inside there. That's kinda the savings with a TM, that it's *seemingly* intended more for small runs and one-offs but if you run it for hours on end then chips will probably become an annoyance. (I say seemingly because there are people in both camps that use their stuff for the other purpose, who am I to judge).

Cleaning a Minimill coolant tank is indeed a hassle, so a toolroom series is a clear advantage there for sure. However there are aspects of both that will require some recurring attention, whether it's chip evacuation or coolant maintenance.

The exposed ways on the TM seemed SUPER sketchy to me but I’ve seen several shops through YouTube or isntagram running them as production machines for years (reliable sources, I know!) and both the local Selway manager and a Haas Apps person I spoke with said it hasn’t been a problem. Obviously taken with a grain of salt. That’s not much for reference material so I’m posting here hoping for some real replies.

But then I’ve got several sets of linear bearings on my shelf that have worn out in service and I must imagine having constant coolant and hot chips on the bearing is going to affect their life.

One of the annoyances I’ve seen with the Haas machines (to me) is that they seem very inefficient with space. I considered a Brother Speedio with about as much working room as a TM but they took up less shop space than a Mini... different goals though!

YdnaD said:

I don't have a TM but I've used them over the years, and I have a MM. Speaking purely of cutting performance, they're almost identical. The differences are mostly in the areas you mentioned (and are likely aware already). For a more general-purpose machine, the toolroom mills are a little more versatile because of the larger work envelope and different enclosure. However I find a Minimill to fit better with production items because it has fully-enclosed ways and less exposed internals, and the overall machine size is smaller so long as your workpiece fits inside there. That's kinda the savings with a TM, that it's *seemingly* intended more for small runs and one-offs but if you run it for hours on end then chips will probably become an annoyance. (I say seemingly because there are people in both camps that use their stuff for the other purpose, who am I to judge).

Cleaning a Minimill coolant tank is indeed a hassle, so a toolroom series is a clear advantage there for sure. However there are aspects of both that will require some recurring attention, whether it's chip evacuation or coolant maintenance.

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Thank you! I think the biggest rigidity demand i might have would potentially be running a 3/4x3” end mill to interpolate the finish on a bore and OD of a tubular part. Think you could take .005-.010” finish pass at 2.5” depth of cut and interpolate a bore within .002”?

I have new Mini Mill and the only thing I do not like is coolant tank design. Cleaning that is huge chore especially on production machine. I completely glossed over this coolant tank design when I was doing my research but just because of that I would not buy machine again, I'd go with Speedio.

I have installed filter on coolant line to the machine so at least nozzles are not getting clogged. If you get any of these machines I recommend getting high pressure coolant pump, stay away from air-gun option or mist coolant options, I think they are pretty useless...

3/4" end mill is bit pushing it on this small machine, but it should work on finishing passes. I have done some bore interpolation for bearing slip fit on 2" diameter and that worked well.

Hope this helps.

I bought a TM1P new this year and have no regrets. I got it with the high flow coolant, rigid tap and chip auger. The things I like over the mini is the work envelope, ability to put long part in and the visual part programming that comes standard. I don't use the latter that much but when someone walks in and needs a simple feature to an existing part it's pretty handy versus modeling it up. I'm not doing this as primary source of income so there are days when it's not running.

Believe there was a post about the spindle pulley on those machines wearing out and the cost to fix the issue was about $7,000 on the tool room mills and mini mill. How does a Vf-1 compare in cost to the TM?

Thread:
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/haas/haas-tm2p-2-pulleys-6-700-a-321065/

Duc said:

Believe there was a post about the spindle pulley on those machines wearing out and the cost to fix the issue was about $7,000 on the tool room mills and mini mill. How does a Vf-1 compare in cost to the TM?

Thread:
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/haas/haas-tm2p-2-pulleys-6-700-a-321065/

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New spindle (installed) for a 10k rpm Speedio is about 5k. No pulleys. I was going to get a MM, but got financing for an S500X1. No regrets whatsoever.

Duc said:

Believe there was a post about the spindle pulley on those machines wearing out and the cost to fix the issue was about $7,000 on the tool room mills and mini mill. How does a Vf-1 compare in cost to the TM?

Thread:
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/haas/haas-tm2p-2-pulleys-6-700-a-321065/

Click to expand...

I had seen that. It doesn’t worry me. I’m not worried about wearing out a pulley. If that happens just cut it off and get a new one made and shrink fit it on.

VF-1 with the options I wanted was I think around $15k more? But I don’t believe I was able to fit it in the space I have. I also have single phase power so a phase converter would need to be added to the cost of the machine up front. Speedios are SWEET but I don’t make all that many parts and that machine would more than double my cost. Maybe for machine #3, machine #2 will be a lathe.

coffeetek said:

I have new Mini Mill and the only thing I do not like is coolant tank design. Cleaning that is huge chore especially on production machine. I completely glossed over this coolant tank design when I was doing my research but just because of that I would not buy machine again, I'd go with Speedio.

I have installed filter on coolant line to the machine so at least nozzles are not getting clogged. If you get any of these machines I recommend getting high pressure coolant pump, stay away from air-gun option or mist coolant options, I think they are pretty useless...

3/4" end mill is bit pushing it on this small machine, but it should work on finishing passes. I have done some bore interpolation for bearing slip fit on 2" diameter and that worked well.

Hope this helps.

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That’s interesting to hear, I was split on the air/MQL system. I was hoping to run a lot of steel parts dry. That’s a LOT of money they want for that system though.

I have no expectations of hogging material with a extended LOC 3/4” end mill in this machine haha. I just want to know if I can take a few skim passes. A major part this will be running starts as 2.75x.375 DOM tube. OD needs to be cleaned up and ID needs to get opened with some precision.

Air gun can be handy if you plan to go back and forth between dry and not dry. I wouldn't get it if I was only running occasional dry steel parts though. Also you can rig up your own air gun with some elbow grease. For instance we have a sheet metal router that makes a huge mess with coolant, so instead I usually just pipe air through the machine's typical coolant hose for a quick swap.

DethloffMfg said:

Speedios are SWEET but I don’t make all that many parts and that machine would more than double my cost. Maybe for machine #3, machine #2 will be a lathe.

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Vast majority of stuff I make is under qty 10 (job shop), but I suppose you mean total milled parts. It is nice that Haas has single phase options. Good luck

I would suggest really looking into a Speedio. Capability wise they are in another league from the TM and MM. Once you add all the options on a Haas to make it useful the price difference is less then you would expect. You mention a main part you are producing is a tube with features? The M140X2 Might be super slick for your applications

Gumpster said:

I would suggest really looking into a Speedio. Capability wise they are in another league from the TM and MM. Once you add all the options on a Haas to make it useful the price difference is less then you would expect. You mention a main part you are producing is a tube with features? The M140X2 Might be super slick for your applications

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Yes, it would totally save me time to run a machine like that. But we're now comparing a $43,000 machine with a... $150,000 machine????? I'm planning around my problem part but those 140's seem TERRIBLY limited in what they can make. I need to be able to make normal flat parts all day as well. I've considered adding a 4th axis to the Haas to do these parts and concluded it would be the slower way to do things. I can run one part on a 4th axis. I can run up to 60 parts (in one op) in a fixture. That is more limited by how many expanding mandrel clamps I want to invest in.

Speedio would be sweet, for sure. I would buy a used Speedio from a shop a day's drive from me if I go that route for the same price as the Haas. Still very tempting but I need to finance this as well and Haas does a dang easy job of that. I have no qualms of what I'm getting into. In a few years this is not going to be my primary machine, it's a stepping stone, but I have to get going first.

I have a 2001 MM and a 2005 TM1. The TM1 is one of the models without an enclosure or tool changer, even though I had a partial enclosure made for it later.

The work area on the MM is very small and what you may over look is your ability to make fixtures for the MM on the MM. I make most all fixtures on the TM1, taking advantage of the larger work area to make fixtures that, when installed on the MM, then take advantage of the entire MM work area.

I also find the larger table on the TM1 allows me to have a vise on one end and a subplate on the other. The MM is just too small for that.

I don't notice any difference in the rigidity of these machines. Neither are take monster cuts in steel plates, although I have no trouble slotting 15mm steel plates 4mm deep with a 12mm carbide end mill in one pass.

So basically, I'd say look at the parts you will be making. If any of them are larger than your hand, get the TM. Also, will there be any advantage to being able to keep 2 set ups on the table? Yes? Get the TM. If you are considering a 4th axis, get the TM.

Kevin Wilkins said:

I also find the larger table on the TM1 allows me to have a vise on one end and a subplate on the other. The MM is just too small for that.

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I'm doing something similar, works pretty good