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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeetek View Post
    Sounds like you guys are very insecure with your choice and are looking for a way to justify the decision you feel was poor so you come into the thread that has nothing to do with Mikron and start justifying your choice to make yourself feel better.

    Nobody in their right mind pays $320k for UMC-500. You can spin that until you faint. It just isn't true. Comparable Mikron is at least double. We paid ~$138k for UMC-500 with 50 tools, high pressure coolant, through spindle coolant and air, belt type chip conveyor, 15k spindle, auto-coolant refill, spare M-codes and bunch of other stuff.

    Mikron 3+2, 12k, 30 tools is ~$247k, no through spindle coolant, auto-refill, etc. etc.

    Lets get back to the topic of how to solve Z-axis growth in UMC-500. Mikron and other machines should be discussed in separate thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by coffeetek View Post
    Lets get back to the topic of how to solve Z-axis growth in UMC-500
    YES :-)

    __________________________________________________ _________


    BTW there is no Agie Charmilles / Mikron sub-forum here on PM (Forum) [AFIK] , maybe moderators / owners might create one ?

    Thought about starting a "Fireside chat" Mikron "Entry level" 5 axis thread but honestly there's no good place to put that.

    ~ Personally I think the pre-fix or moniker of "Entry level" in RE: 5 axis should be dropped all together.

    Some point will comb back over the machine alignment and specific kinematic process(es) for HAAS UMC 500.


    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________


    Really interesting what @D Nelson was mentioning in terms of movement.

    The reason I "Check in" with Makino is they tend to be a good "Goto" in some cases of HOW to do things or in some cases "How" things should or could or can be done.

    The one thing they bang on about a lot (in a machine neutral way) is how various castings and large machine components take up heat and then re-radiate and conduct it out.

    Usually they point to asymmetric machines with a lot of diagonal braces and trusses in a frame as well as different thicknesses within the walls of various castings. So in the process of heating up and cooling down, a frame can distort based on the different thicknesses of ribs that take up heat and give up heat at different rates*
    . i.e. surface area to volume ratio ; thinner ribs will loose heat faster than thicker ones / parts of a given casting with different wall thicknesses.

    In what @D Nelson described might be elucidated with a time lapse with a thermal imaging camera.
    + various DTIs around the machine on "Fixed" points however you can create those. (spindle head / ram assembly).

    ______________


    * Some of the Japanese builders propose boxier castings , thicker / more even ribs , fewer diagonal trusses (in some cases will physically insulate or lag the exterior walls of casting to slow down the rate of heat loss / more even temperature smoothing).

    OTOH: Hardinge for example have artfully fine tuned and fixed thermal compensation issues by judicious placement of fans through different points in the castings (that turn on and off) on some of their most accurate turning machinery Rather than to elucidate data from ten different sensors in the casting to derive some sort of automated "Global" compensation values.

    The HAAS design for the UMC-500 does kinda hark back to or give a "Nod" to more German style universals.

    Other than casting redesign - maybe something that could be fixed with something as simple as a fan and a software tweak.

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    I think software will be the fix for them
    Don


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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    Quote Originally Posted by D Nelson View Post
    I think software will be the fix for them
    Don


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    i hope you're right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    YES :-)

    __________________________________________________ _________


    BTW there is no Agie Charmilles / Mikron sub-forum here on PM (Forum) [AFIK] , maybe moderators / owners might create one ?

    Thought about starting a "Fireside chat" Mikron "Entry level" 5 axis thread but honestly there's no good place to put that.

    ~ Personally I think the pre-fix or moniker of "Entry level" in RE: 5 axis should be dropped all together.

    Some point will comb back over the machine alignment and specific kinematic process(es) for HAAS UMC 500.


    _

    OTOH: Hardinge for example have artfully fine tuned and fixed thermal compensation issues by judicious placement of fans through different points in the castings (that turn on and off) on some of their most accurate turning machinery Rather than to elucidate data from ten different sensors in the casting to derive some sort of automated "Global" compensation values.

    The HAAS design for the UMC-500 does kinda hark back to or give a "Nod" to more German style universals.

    Other than casting redesign - maybe something that could be fixed with something as simple as a fan and a software tweak.
    An Agie Charmilles / Mikron sub-forum would be really cool since they have a full line of Milling, EDM ( with a long and storied presence) and Advanced manufacturing.

    Back in the Day Hardinge used composite polymer machine bases along with temperature sensors. They would hold turning tolerances in the millionths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeetek View Post

    Mikron 3+2, 12k, 30 tools is ~$247k, no through spindle coolant, auto-refill, etc. etc.
    While there WAS a 'HEM' machine spec like you are mentioning, AFAIK, it's not offered for years and had been supplanted by the E500U and E700U with full 5axis the Direct drive rotaries, that i'm talking about. Just keeping the apples and oranges straight. This older 'HEM500' model you seem to be fixated on could actually do full 5 axis, they were promoted as 3+2 due to the gear drive situation, like the current Haas'.
    Lets get back to the topic of how to solve Z-axis growth in UMC-500. Mikron and other machines should be discussed in separate thread.
    Can you do all the roughing, then send the finisher to the laser for measurement prior to running finish passes? maybe do a little tool warmup dance first then to the LASER.

  8. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkd View Post
    While there WAS a 'HEM' machine spec like you are mentioning, AFAIK, it's not offered for years and had been supplanted by the E500U and E700U with full 5axis the Direct drive rotaries, that i'm talking about. Just keeping the apples and oranges straight. This older 'HEM500' model you seem to be fixated on could actually do full 5 axis, they were promoted as 3+2 due to the gear drive situation, like the current Haas'.
    Again, nope. This is quote from last year for GF Machining Solutions Mikron MILL E 500 U which we explored among others before ordering UMC-500. Not even close to UMC-500 pricing.

    Quote Originally Posted by mkd View Post
    Can you do all the roughing, then send the finisher to the laser for measurement prior to running finish passes? maybe do a little tool warmup dance first then to the LASER.
    Yes, but its a kludge and it takes too long. One should not need to do such things, Haas or not.

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    Haas added a thermal sensor in the z axis to all of the UMC produced after a certain point 5 -6 months ago.

    UMC Thermal Growth Sensor Install - AD0515


    Mine was delivered in December 2020. Iím almost positive the software is the issue i was seeing the same problem. I was seeing up to .005 of growth over multiple test warm up programs and re probing the same point on the table. Over a period of about 2.5 hours.

    I then unplugged the thermal sensor from the board in the electrical cabinet. After this I had to recalibrate the the probe length and the mrzp.

    After the thermal sensor was dis connected. I then ran the same warm up and probing tests as before.
    At this point the max amount of a movement I saw was .0007 to .001

    From what I am hearing haas has a software fix on the way. My plan is to run the machine without the thermal sensor hooked up for now.

    So far the data looks like this will work. Iím going to run my first part tomorrow after disconnecting the sensor. I will report back my findings.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Riffing on the "why do people buy a haas when they could have maybe got a better value with .."

    1. Sometimes it's not a better a value.... There are reasons people still buy manual lathes and for that matter routers...

    2. Sometimes higher level issues like support, availability of staff, etc. matter.

    3. The coreprint pattern guy (instagram, and one of the postcasts) points out that some industries will not support a higher level of capex than that - think about it - if it's literally foam cores for castings, what's the point of a makino? Would you even worry about the head growth discussed here?

    4. There are some businesses where there can be leverage in not investing very differently from other people. If other people in my market are winning jobs and making money with VF3s, do I want to risk higher capex? Sort of like how if all the other towing companies are using F650s with some rig, do I want to spend more on a kenworth chassis that may not make me any more money? (Of course sometimes you win by spending more for something better. But not always.)

    BUT

    5. Haas has a half decent web site and runs a nice youtube channel where like 5 different people do really decent presentations on all manner of things, and their website lists all of the damn machines and how big they are and what they cost. The manuals are on the web site you can go and read them. (Also true of Heidenhein.... ) And they LIST SOME PRICING.

    Half the time I don't think other vendors own senior management have a list of all their machines or any notion of price.

    Mikron wanted me to fill in a form to download something - screw that. I've got no time for that. If you won't tell me the sizes and ranges of your machines, and at least range pricing up front, I'll assume they're all the size of Boeing's 747 factory and cost $40 million and go on.

    (Part of how I ended up with a DMG was the then local folks (2 rep changes ago!) PROMPTLY answered an email in a SENSIBLE way.... And I thought "I can afford that, I can fit that, can I power that?")

    You wanna take some market share from haas? Copy their web site and hire people like the Haas presenters to show how to fix little stuff on your machines....

    You don't reallly care about that market because you are all about selling machines to Tesla or GM? Fine - don't cry when smaller shops ignore you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mkd View Post
    While there WAS a 'HEM' machine spec like you are mentioning, AFAIK, it's not offered for years and had been supplanted by the E500U and E700U with full 5axis the Direct drive rotaries, that i'm talking about. Just keeping the apples and oranges straight. This older 'HEM500' model you seem to be fixated on could actually do full 5 axis, they were promoted as 3+2 due to the gear drive situation, like the current Haas'.


    Can you do all the roughing, then send the finisher to the laser for measurement prior to running finish passes? maybe do a little tool warmup dance first then to the LASER.
    no laser on haas, lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    no laser on haas, lol
    Yeah , I'm like WOT laser ??? lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeetek View Post
    Again, nope. This is quote from last year for GF Machining Solutions Mikron MILL E 500 U which we explored among others before ordering UMC-500. Not even close to UMC-500 pricing.



    Yes, but its a kludge and it takes too long. One should not need to do such things, Haas or not.
    Yeah "Ditto" - Re: machine that was quoted to me through Hartwig,

    AND agree on "shouldn't need to mess about" "HAAS or not".

    This is a bit ridiculous,

    Today's a busy day for me but maybe tonight or tomorrow I'll start a Mikron VS HAAS vs. "The world" or somink. On the CNC sub forum. (maybe) - I have to admit I am totally "Machine-ed out" but I have a few minor issues / grievances along the lines that you @coffetek are outlining (nothing serious) - just stuff that could do with ironing-out a little bit. Seems MKD is fishing for info in a push pull kind of way - so kinda seems worth it to grab the "Bull" by the horns.

    [Other key or core issue is the notion of prototype to small run production (seems that's what Mikron are trying to offer / push with relatively affordable pallet systems ) VS. a 5 axis based prototype cell without pallet systems and then later buy more (slightly different machines) for separate production. [the world has changed a bit - (our little ship) has pivoted more to not piggy back "production" onto a prototype cell; ~ actually "peeps" at Hermle were gently trying to disabuse me of the idea of prototype and short run production on one machine even though they have enhanced automation for their "Entry level" machines. Seems a better fit for current times to split prototype cell - THEN production equipment. ]. Kinda off topic but plugs into how many machines / how many spindles / for how much $. I get why job shops would want pallet systems and small start-up manufacturing.

    If such a rando Mikron thread (on the CNC sub forum) gets super big or knarly then maybe it can get moved to a newly created sub-forum for Mikron - (not very likely).

    Maybe Mikron could put some skin in the game and sponsor a sub forum / banners etc.
    + someone from Mikron you can ask real question of / to ?

    __________



    [Rooting for a clever fix / hack on the UMC 500 + other.]. - will check out @AlexEnderson's link.

    Good Luck everybody !

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Yeah "Ditto" - Re: machine that was quoted to me through Hartwig,

    AND agree on "shouldn't need to mess about" "HAAS or not".

    This is a bit ridiculous,

    Today's a busy day for me but maybe tonight or tomorrow I'll start a Mikron VS HAAS vs. "The world" or somink. On the CNC sub forum. (maybe) - I have to admit I am totally "Machine-ed out" but I have a few minor issues / grievances along the lines that you @coffetek are outlining (nothing serious) - just stuff that could do with ironing-out a little bit. Seems MKD is fishing for info in a push pull kind of way - so kinda seems worth it to grab the "Bull" by the horns.

    [Other key or core issue is the notion of prototype to small run production (seems that's what Mikron are trying to offer / push with relatively affordable pallet systems ) VS. a 5 axis based prototype cell without pallet systems and then later buy more (slightly different machines) for separate production. [the world has changed a bit - we've pivoted more to not piggy back "production" onto a prototype cell; ~ actually "peeps" at Hermle were gently trying to disabuse me of the idea of prototype and short run production on one machine even though they have enhanced automation for their "Entry level" machines. Seems a better fit for current times to split prototype cell - THEN production equipment. ]. Kinda off topic but plugs into how many machines / how many spindles / for how much $.

    If such a rando Mikron thread gets super big or knarly then maybe it can get moved to a new sub-forum for Mikron - (not very likely).

    __________

    Good Luck everybody !
    delightfully impatient!

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexEnderson View Post
    Haas added a thermal sensor in the z axis to all of the UMC produced after a certain point 5 -6 months ago.

    UMC Thermal Growth Sensor Install - AD0515


    Mine was delivered in December 2020. Iím almost positive the software is the issue i was seeing the same problem. I was seeing up to .005 of growth over multiple test warm up programs and re probing the same point on the table. Over a period of about 2.5 hours.

    I then unplugged the thermal sensor from the board in the electrical cabinet. After this I had to recalibrate the the probe length and the mrzp.

    After the thermal sensor was dis connected. I then ran the same warm up and probing tests as before.
    At this point the max amount of a movement I saw was .0007 to .001

    From what I am hearing haas has a software fix on the way. My plan is to run the machine without the thermal sensor hooked up for now.

    So far the data looks like this will work. Iím going to run my first part tomorrow after disconnecting the sensor. I will report back my findings.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Hello Alex ,

    I did almost the same.
    I removed the sensor from the motherboard and remeasured a tool. I saw almost 1mm deviation.
    At that point I realized what's going on. I measured the resistance of the thermal sensor and I added 20 M ohm resistor at it's place ( this gives a value of the I/O P45.1 of about 620 ( whatever this is ) which corresponds to about 24 deg.
    I am running the machine with this hack since Friday , and it seems to hold about 0,01mm when properly warmed up.
    My local HFO said that this week HAAS should came up with the new software to fix it but we will see how good it is.

    Regarding the nod of the head in Y. On my machine I see about 0,03mm sag through the stroke of the Y axis.
    Mostly after passing the center.
    I don't know why HAAS put the tool probe in the worst possible place , as if you mainly work in the center of Y axis your tools will be shorter.

    So far the rotaries are still surprisingly good. I put a micron indicator on B and I jog in 0.001 increments and holy moly there is
    no backlash.

    Another anomaly I see is the C axis. Especially the brake on it. When the brake is engaged I see 0.02mm of pull down of the indicator. On the B there is a movement of the needle when brake is applied but it's in the range of 2-3 microns.

    I am doing the Ball calibration for a 4th time. I am getting +/- 0,01mm in X and Y offset variance.
    Z is surprisingly about 0,05mm out ( no matter what I do ) I need to manually readjust it while machining ( after the calibration If I have to face a block on the opposite sides I get 40,1mm actual size instead of 40.00mm.
    I am using a 2mm ball stylus on the probe , but don't think this is the problem.
    I learned a lot in the past 2 weeks since calibrating and adjusting this machine....

    After 3 days of big material removal - surprise surprise the chip conveyor channels are now clogged and 50% of the coolant is staying inside the machine while running.

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    For the chip issue my hfo removed the conveyor cleaned it out good and replaced it . They then added an air knife to blow the chips off the end of the conveyor above the barrel . This air knife is activated when running the conveyor. This fixed the issue so far. I think the chips get stuck on the conveyor and roll back underneath and pack up. Either way what what ever the cause is the air knife fixed it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Let me add something on a positive note. We interpolate bearing bore and its day in and day out within 3-4 microns, most of the time around 2 microns, so a tenth. That's not bad at all.

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    I totally agree on this, mine does the same in X Y.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeetek View Post
    Let me add something on a positive note. We interpolate bearing bore and its day in and day out within 3-4 microns, most of the time around 2 microns, so a tenth. That's not bad at all.
    Same here on both UMC-500s and a VF-5.

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    Just finished the first run of parts after disconnecting the thermal sensor and re calibrating the machine. The first part was practically perfect off of the machine with no adjustments. I think the proven solution is to run without the thermal sensor until haas comes up with a proper software fix.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeetek View Post
    Let me add something on a positive note. We interpolate bearing bore and its day in and day out within 3-4 microns, most of the time around 2 microns, so a tenth. That's not bad at all.
    I've had good success with my 2002 VF-3. I just have to sneak up on it a lot and feed pretty slow.I'm confident of staying under .0005" circularity with basic shop inspection, nothing sophisticated. On a mill that specs at +/- .0002 this seems well within that.
    now two tenths is .005mm. Don't know how you guys are measuring and consistently hitting way under half Haas' stated accuracy. (unless the specs changed on UMC?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mkd View Post
    I've had good success with my 2002 VF-3. I just have to sneak up on it a lot and feed pretty slow.I'm confident of staying under .0005" circularity with basic shop inspection, nothing sophisticated. On a mill that specs at +/- .0002 this seems well within that.
    now two tenths is .005mm. Don't know how you guys are measuring and consistently hitting way under half Haas' stated accuracy. (unless the specs changed on UMC?)
    Aye,



    ^^^ check this out - (not me) - Professional Instruments - Hard milling on a HAAS TM1 - hardened stainless bearing like component to 0.48 micron roundness... - (20 millionths of an inch) - Admittedly with the help of a Professional Instruments hydrostatic bearing/ table. This video is quite a hoot as it was performed as a test for Kern - (not sure if it's that KERN.). Also that the TM1 is usually thought of as being two times less accurate than a (HAAS) VF series mill. Sometimes in cut you can dynamically load one side of the outer race of a bearing thereby partially reducing more generic spindle runout, in this case on the HAAS TM1 spindle.

    The runout of the hydrostatic spindle is practically zero.

    ____

    So sometimes (with a few accessories "You can do it on a HAAS" ).

    _______________

    It's interesting to me that shops that do a lot of high to ultra precision stuff have HAAS-es as most everything they mill or turn is going to be then ground or lapped (variously) or diamond turned etc.

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