Very small tool diametrical value when setting with WIPS and VQC (newbie)

miks · Dec 11, 2019

Hi all. I recently got a new-to-me 2010 SMM2 with the Renishaw WIPS. First Haas for me, so I'm starting from scratch.

I was starting to learn about setting tools with the WIPS system today and ran into something that seems odd. I'm setting up a 1/4" endmill (I've set machine to metric, so I'm setting a 6.35mm endmill). I ran the "auto length only" program in VQC and it went fine. Then I tried running "auto length and diameter". It seemed to work fine - spun backwards, touched off in Z, then went down off to the side of the tool setter and touched off on both sides of the endmill. Afterwards, the measured length seems good. But, for some reason, I'm seeing a *very* small value in the D(DIA)Geometry tab of the tool offset table. The value I'm seeing is 0.031mm (pic below of tool offset screen). I've watched a few videos of the tool setting process and it seems like you should get something close to the *total diameter* of the tool (right?), not some tiny value like this. The 0.031 value seems more like a measurement of wear or something.

So, my guestion is, is something wrong here? Should I in fact see the total diameter of the tool in the D(DIA)GEOMETRY column? If so, any ideas as to what's going on?

As a side note - the machine sat idle for a couple months after I got it (long story) and it drained the motherboard batteries. I installed the external battery holder and then had a tech come to re-boot the machine, update the software, reset the SMTC, etc. The tech told me he reset the WIPS system too, but I haven't verified that myself. Maybe he messed something up? Or, is there a setting somewhere that would explain the tiny value I'm seeing for tool diameter? Sorry if this is super basic or if I'm missing something very obvious. Thanks for any thoughts.

Tryhard · Dec 12, 2019

miks said:
Hi all. I recently got a new-to-me 2010 SMM2 with the Renishaw WIPS. First Haas for me, so I'm starting from scratch.

I was starting to learn about setting tools with the WIPS system today and ran into something that seems odd. I'm setting up a 1/4" endmill (I've set machine to metric, so I'm setting a 6.35mm endmill). I ran the "auto length only" program in VQC and it went fine. Then I tried running "auto length and diameter". It seemed to work fine - spun backwards, touched off in Z, then went down off to the side of the tool setter and touched off on both sides of the endmill. Afterwards, the measured length seems good. But, for some reason, I'm seeing a *very* small value in the D(DIA)Geometry tab of the tool offset table. The value I'm seeing is 0.031mm (pic below of tool offset screen). I've watched a few videos of the tool setting process and it seems like you should get something close to the *total diameter* of the tool (right?), not some tiny value like this. The 0.031 value seems more like a measurement of wear or something.

So, my guestion is, is something wrong here? Should I in fact see the total diameter of the tool in the D(DIA)GEOMETRY column? If so, any ideas as to what's going on?

As a side note - the machine sat idle for a couple months after I got it (long story) and it drained the motherboard batteries. I installed the external battery holder and then had a tech come to re-boot the machine, update the software, reset the SMTC, etc. The tech told me he reset the WIPS system too, but I haven't verified that myself. Maybe he messed something up? Or, is there a setting somewhere that would explain the tiny value I'm seeing for tool diameter? Sorry if this is super basic or if I'm missing something very obvious. Thanks for any thoughts.
View attachment 272315

What diameter is your tool setters probe tip? Sounds like it may not match the diameter that the parameter is set to. ???

Booze Daily · Dec 12, 2019

I would imagine that number (.031) is the difference between the size you told it (6.35)
and the size it measured.

miks · Dec 12, 2019

Booze Daily said:
I would imagine that number (.031) is the difference between the size you told it (6.35)
and the size it measured.

Yes, that sounds reasonable. But shouldn’t the .031 spot be indicating the total tool diameter i.e. 6.319 (6.35-.031)? That’s where I’m confused. Or is the 0.031 value fine there?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

miks · Dec 12, 2019

Tryhard said:
What diameter is your tool setters probe tip? Sounds like it may not match the diameter that the parameter is set to. ???

Could be. Seems like I should redo the setter and probe calibration myself to be sure.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Booze Daily · Dec 12, 2019

miks said:
Yes, that sounds reasonable. But shouldn’t the .031 spot be indicating the total tool diameter i.e. 6.319 (6.35-.031)? That’s where I’m confused. Or is the 0.031 value fine there?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

For starters, you need to know if your machine is set to comp by radius or diameter. Most use radius.

Some people program accounting for the size of the endmill. The cutter comp value will typically be small (.031)

Some people program the exact part profile and comp the full tool rad/dia. In which case you would add your tool rad/dia to the measured (.031) size. ie 3.175+.031 = 3.206 (A plus value moves away from the profile, a minus value moves into the profile)

However, endmills are ground slightly smaller than nominal and since yours is measuring bigger (6.412)
it would lead me to believe that your endmill is running out.

Booze Daily · Dec 12, 2019

miks said:
Yes, that sounds reasonable. But shouldn’t the .031 spot be indicating the total tool diameter i.e. 6.319 (6.35-.031)? That’s where I’m confused. Or is the 0.031 value fine there?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh I see what you're asking. The .031 value is in that column because that's the base measurement.
Adjustments are made in the wear column so you can keep track of how much your tool is wearing.

It honestly doesn't matter which column its in since the control takes both values into consideration. It's more of a convenience for the operator to monitor the tool.

Mike1974 · Dec 12, 2019

I will try not to go off topic here. I think the problem is the toolsetter is still in inch mode (semi-wag

). My thought process for this is if the toolsetter is in inches (it stores values in a variable somewhere), and the disc diameter is stored at .5 MM instead of inches your diameters will be all screwy. I would try setting the machine to metric then re-calibrate both probe and toolsetter and see what happens.

Also, can't say on a 2010 vintage, but our 2013-2018 machines all will write the actual diameter measured (not some difference between actual and measured or whatever) when using the toolsetter -length and diameter measure cycle.

miks · Dec 12, 2019

Mike1974 said:
I will try not to go off topic here. I think the problem is the toolsetter is still in inch mode (semi-wag ). My thought process for this is if the toolsetter is in inches (it stores values in a variable somewhere), and the disc diameter is stored at .5 MM instead of inches your diameters will be all screwy. I would try setting the machine to metric then re-calibrate both probe and toolsetter and see what happens.

Also, can't say on a 2010 vintage, but our 2013-2018 machines all will write the actual diameter measured (not some difference between actual and measured or whatever) when using the toolsetter -length and diameter measure cycle.

Mike1974 - I think this sounds like it could be it. Good to know about the '13~18 machines. I'm pretty sure (based on videos I've seen and just what seems to make sense) that the Diameter column should show the full diameter, not a wear value (as I understand it, you're supposed to manually enter the wear value - subtracting the measured from the nominal - in the Wear column; doesn't make sense to me that the Diameter column would show a probed wear value, but I could be wrong). The tech calibrated the WIPS in inch, and then I reset the default machine units to mm. I'm going to try to recalibrate the WIPS system myself (haven't done it before, so something to learn) using all metric units and see if that fixes it. Thanks!

miks · Dec 12, 2019

Booze Daily - thanks for your comments. I really haven't gotten into cutter comp stuff yet but that's definitely something I need to learn going forward. So, I appreciate the info in that regard and will bear it in mind. Cheers!

miks · Dec 15, 2019

Well, I went through the tool setter calibration and tool probe calibration procedures, entering in metric values for the calibration values. Then I re-set my 1/4" endmill and . . . same thing as before. Well basically. Now it's showing 0.019 in the D(DIA) Geometry column. Once again, the tool length value appears to be fine.

I might contact the local HFO to see what they think, but does anyone have any other ideas? I can't help but wonder if there's some setting buried deep that sets this as the *difference* between the nominal value and the measured value (basically, wear) instead of the total diameter. Thanks for any other thoughts.

miks · Dec 15, 2019

Tryhard said:
What diameter is your tool setters probe tip? Sounds like it may not match the diameter that the parameter is set to. ???

I re-did the calibration tonight (first time for me, originally it was set by a Haas tech). I don't recall there being a place to enter the tool setter probe tip diameter - just the length and diameter of the tool setter calibration bar (I'm using a gauge pin). Maybe I missed this somehow, or it's set somewhere outside of the VQC tool setter calibration procedure?

Mike1974 · Dec 16, 2019

miks said:
I re-did the calibration tonight (first time for me, originally it was set by a Haas tech). I don't recall there being a place to enter the tool setter probe tip diameter - just the length and diameter of the tool setter calibration bar (I'm using a gauge pin). Maybe I missed this somehow, or it's set somewhere outside of the VQC tool setter calibration procedure?

I couldn't find anything for the tool setter disc diameter. I would think it has to be stored somewhere, or otherwise how doe the machine "know" how close to get the tool before measuring the diameter.

An idea, reset everything back to inch and re-do calibration and see if it measures the diameter of your tool correctly?

I thought you mentioned you were using a 1/4" endmill, so why set machine to metric (curious)?

Mike1974 · Dec 16, 2019

miks said:
I re-did the calibration tonight (first time for me, originally it was set by a Haas tech). I don't recall there being a place to enter the tool setter probe tip diameter - just the length and diameter of the tool setter calibration bar (I'm using a gauge pin). Maybe I missed this somehow, or it's set somewhere outside of the VQC tool setter calibration procedure?

Haas standard renishaw probe tips are 6mm (.23622")

miks · Dec 17, 2019

Mike1974 said:
I couldn't find anything for the tool setter disc diameter. I would think it has to be stored somewhere, or otherwise how doe the machine "know" how close to get the tool before measuring the diameter.

An idea, reset everything back to inch and re-do calibration and see if it measures the diameter of your tool correctly?

I thought you mentioned you were using a 1/4" endmill, so why set machine to metric (curious)?

I agree the tool setter disk diameter must be stored, but I'm not sure they would make that a user-entered value. Certainly Renishaw could just write the software for the probing and tool setting with the known diameters of those. They don't know the size of the calibration bar you're using, or the size of the ring gauge, so those make sense to have to enter. But, I don't see why they'd need to have the user enter the setter diameter (or probe tip diameter).

Anyway, that's an interesting idea to set it back to inches and calibrate and measure again. I may try that.

However, there's definitely something funny going on. I spoke to a Haas tech and he suggested the setter code may have been modified at some point to display the wear, not the diameter. He suggested I change the diameter of the tool "falsely" to see what happened. In other words, use the same tool but enter a new diameter. I did this. I entered 7.35 for tool diameter instead of the (correct) 6.35 value. After running the length/diameter VQC preset I got an identical length, but the diameter was now 1mm smaller (it was reading -0.982 with the "7.35mm" tool, and 0.019 for the 6.35mm tool (same tool measured both times). I sent that info to the Haas tech as well as the 09023 program (he requested) and he's checking into it.

I do prototyping for my business and then personal projects. I model in CAD in metric, and program the CAM also in metric. So, I'm trying to stick with metric throughout the process, which I why I set the machine to metric. But, I have tooling that is standard (seems much more prevalent and cheaper) hence measuring a 1/4" endmill.

miks · Dec 17, 2019

Yes. I measured it yesterday and got that figure, so good to know. But, again, I don't think VQC asks for or needs that value (presumably the software already knows that size?).

Mike1974 · Dec 17, 2019

miks said:
I agree the tool setter disk diameter must be stored, but I'm not sure they would make that a user-entered value. Certainly Renishaw could just write the software for the probing and tool setting with the known diameters of those. They don't know the size of the calibration bar you're using, or the size of the ring gauge, so those make sense to have to enter. But, I don't see why they'd need to have the user enter the setter diameter (or probe tip diameter).

Anyway, that's an interesting idea to set it back to inches and calibrate and measure again. I may try that.

However, there's definitely something funny going on. I spoke to a Haas tech and he suggested the setter code may have been modified at some point to display the wear, not the diameter. He suggested I change the diameter of the tool "falsely" to see what happened. In other words, use the same tool but enter a new diameter. I did this. I entered 7.35 for tool diameter instead of the (correct) 6.35 value. After running the length/diameter VQC preset I got an identical length, but the diameter was now 1mm smaller (it was reading -0.982 with the "7.35mm" tool, and 0.019 for the 6.35mm tool (same tool measured both times). I sent that info to the Haas tech as well as the 09023 program (he requested) and he's checking into it.

I do prototyping for my business and then personal projects. I model in CAD in metric, and program the CAM also in metric. So, I'm trying to stick with metric throughout the process, which I why I set the machine to metric. But, I have tooling that is standard (seems much more prevalent and cheaper) hence measuring a 1/4" endmill.

View attachment 272754

That is certainly very strange. I know you can use negative values for wear, but seems extremely odd it would measure a tool and put a negative value in for the diameter! Sounds like the tech is onto something with a parameter or something being changed... just no idea where it would be?

variables 156-199 are used by the probe if installed
System Variables | Customer Resource Center

WAG here, so don't quote me please.

On our machine variable 166=.4974

187/188/192 all = .503
scratch that, looks like 185-199 are size/positions recorded from probing, not sure about 166

Those are the only numbers I see close to the OTS disc diameter so...??
I wouldn't recommend you change them unless you can find out for sure what they are though (or you are brave enough!)..

Booze Daily · Dec 17, 2019

I've never used the length and dia measurement on my presetter so I just duplicated what you have done.

I calibrated the disc with a .375 gage pin and my parameter 166 is .4939.
I measured a 1/4" endmill and got .125 as my radius geometry. (My machine is set to radius measurment.)

This is an 06 VF2SS.

I'm kinda with the tech that maybe the prior user modified the macro to just measure wear. Which correlates with your experiment of lying about the tool size. The measured tool is in fact -1mm from the size you told it.

pmack · Dec 17, 2019

Someone has changed the probing cycle to read the difference between the approximate tool diameter and the measured(by the tool setter) diameter.
See the last post in this thread. You just need to revert to the original line of code for line N31.

Haas cutter compensation...

miks · Dec 17, 2019

pmack said:
Someone has changed the probing cycle to read the difference between the approximate tool diameter and the measured(by the tool setter) diameter.
See the last post in this thread. You just need to revert to the original line of code for line N31.

Haas cutter compensation...

pmack - Thanks for that link. The last comment in that thread appears to have been spot on. While I was waiting for responses on this thread I contacted my HFO and the tech said it was likely an issue with the 09852 program. I sent him that program and he returned a revised one. I deleted the original and replaced it with the new code, then re-ran the length and diameter VQC preset. With a brand new 6.35mm endmill I'm getting a diameter now of 6.369mm. I was previously getting a value of 0.019 so this code change appears to have done the trick.

Or did it? It seems a little odd to me that a new tool is *over* the nominal. I'm still pretty new to CNC so I suppose 0.019mm (seven tenths) could be within tolerance of the endmill (it's a Lakeshore Carbide, 3 flute, 1/4").
But what makes me wonder is I checked that post you linked to. The last comment talks about a change to the line after N31. Rainman making that post said to change it to:
"#[ 2400 + #7 ]= #8 / #156 - #19 (add the -#19 to the end)"

But, here's what I had originally in 09852 and what the HFO Tech changed it to:
Original line: #[ 2400 + #7 ]= [ #8 - #19 ] / #156
Updated HFOTech line: #[ 2400 + #7 ]= #8 / #156 [So, it looks like the tech *removed* the -19, but it was in a different place compared to Rainman's suggestion]

I've messaged Rainman to see what he thinks, but if anyone else understands what's going on here please chime in. Or, maybe there's no issue and I shouldn't stress about the 6.369 measured value for a 6.35 nominal tool? Or, to ask it another way, is it within standard tolerances for a new endmill to be oversized by seven tenths?

Very small tool diametrical value when setting with WIPS and VQC (newbie)

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