Why Does HAAS Have a Bad Rep? (To some people)
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    Default Why Does HAAS Have a Bad Rep? (To some people)

    Why???

    I Love them!

    I have ran a lot of mills; Okuma, Toyoda, Dah Li, Takumi, Awea, and Deckel Maho 5 Axis to name a few, and HAAS is my second favourite only to the DMG machines (which cost an arm and a leg, so how could you NOT like them? :p).

    I've ran a Deckel Maho DMU 200P 5 axis mill worth about $1.25million and i am just as happy (happier even!) running a little HAAS TM1.

    I love HAAS machines and i am Canadian. If i were to start a shop, my first mill would no doubt be a HAAS.

    Why do some people consider them "junk"???

    To me they are an excellent machine with an excellent controller and above all, EXCELLENT support. By comparison, i've seen DMG mills down for a week at a time because they don't have enough service tech's!!

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    Mostly because they only build light weight machines. All their spindle data is inflated and they are not rigid enough to be dedicated steel milling machines IMO. Having stepped right out of a Haas and into a Mori on an identical part, the difference was staggering.

    Don't get me wrong, I actually really like Haas a a company. Their design efforts, aesthetics, customer service, etc. They are leaps and bounds over other companies. That being said, I think they are scared to step up and build a real machine with real mass and real power. They have all the ability to do it but I think they enjoy staying in the shadows with the business model of "ours is not as capable because it is cheaper"

    First day we got an SS VMC, we made the mistake of opening the door while it was in tool change. It lost where it was and had to have hand holding to get it back to work. That told me right there that they have more work to do. Spindles failing, shorting the machines of mass to save a buck, inferior wire and terminations that cause all sorts of failures and down time, misleading spindle data, piss poor design on chip evacuation, coolant tanks that have issues, etc.

    However, they ARE trying and I respect that. They build everything in house which means one company services the whole deal. That also means a SHITLOAD of extra cash in their pocket when they manufacture a spindle drive for 200 bucks and sell it to you for 4 grand! As a person of business, I cannot help but respect their business model though. They are chopping away at the block to pretty much build the entire machine which betters their bottom line as well as quality. Just have to get them to stop skimping on the little things that earn them a bad rep.

    They came out with a Y axis lathe, do you think I would even consider that??? HELL NO. Now if they want to put one in my shop to prove it to me, I would be happy to give my own opinion but they want you to spend 300K and trust them that they are good.

    I am still pissed off about an older machine. Actually 1997 Haas VMC that they built with an open loop scalar spindle drive. In short, the spindle cannot respond to loads and therefor is DRASTICALLY reduced in power. To make it better, they want me to throw them 4 grand PLUS install to fix their screw up. I have a 1991 Mori Seiki that runs absolute position encoders and closed loop vector, constant HP spindle. NIGHT AND DAY DIFFERENCE!!!!! One can get out of it's own way, one can't.

    I also experienced a machine finish issue with that Haas that turned out to be vibration in the heat causing it. Even though Haas said no, my owns eyes don't lie. Their engineering dept called me to ask about it and to see how I fixed it. I told them to go fuck themselves because they want me to spend my own money to have their techs in here to find the problems that would ultimately end up with them wanting to replace 10K in gear.

    I told them if they want to learn what their problem is, they can come visit the machine on their dime and work with us to resolve it. I got the finger. They tried to tell me the fan on my spindle motor was causing it... LOL. Frequency changes with spindle RPM - duh.... Anyway, if you cannot tell, I have a LONG list of things to bitch about but as they might tell you, you get what you pay for.

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    Last day job I had, when I didn't have much parts to make I'd do some inspecting, parts being mostly stainless, and some in aluminum.
    It was always very easy to tell what parts came from what shop, knowing what machines each had. Parts off the mazaks always had much better milled finishes, Haas, not so much, probably would have taken them more tweaking to get it better. Also easy to tell when their spindle was going bad, real bad.

    Then you have the real HP thing, machine weight, quality/size of the rails vs some other brands. It's all in the details, they seem to do fine for quite a few shops, they obviously sell a lot of them, I like their website. But I sure wouldn't go around telling anyone they'll do everything in any shop that a more expensive high end machine will... Many people do like the Haas control and service, but dollar for dollar there's a few other really interesting machines that offer as lot these days as well.

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    Cant be dedicated steel milling machines?

    I know a guy that has been using one for ten years doing just that, only that, everyday.

    Last I heard he had replaced a single card in that machine in that ten years.

    He said it had paid for itself so many times he had lost count.

    Who makes this stuff up?

    I had a tech tell me a while back before I got my Haas that "you can stop the spindle with your hand" they are so weak.

    LOL

    Go ahead, just have someone available to take you to the ER before you do it.


    My opinion....it's one-upmanship. Guys that run half million dollar machines take pride in that, either that they have enough money to buy them or that they are good enough to be trusted with them (rightly so too, it's no doubt a highly skilled trade).

    Very few of the "bashers" actually write the checks to buy the machines I have noted.


    No one brags about their 8000.00 new Korean import car, and guys that drive the Mercedes would tell you they would not be caught dead in one. Even though they basically do the same thing.

    Yes the big boys are bigger, faster and have better MMR, you get what you pay for.

    Does not mean Haas has no place or that they are crap. Anyone that says otherwise has an agenda, either personal or otherwise because if it were true the company would have gone out of business long ago. As it stands Haas turned into one of the largest machine tool MFGs in the world.

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    Um, let me see here, I have and DO run steel in the Haas machines and I DO write the check for the machines as well as run most of them. Yeah, I think I have a pretty good perspective on things.

    Let me break this down:

    Haas spindle, 10HP "rated", in the cut tested with actual load, MRR, and other calculated data, actual output was 3HP!!!!! WOW, special!! That was all it would handle before stalling the spindle.

    Mori spindle, 10HP "rated" BUT is constant HP all to way from 500-6000rpm. This is because that 10HP Mori is actually using a 35HP spindle motor tuned in so it will produce an increase in torque when the speed is decreased.

    Go check the spindle motor on a Haas "30HP rated VMC". It is a 10HP motor!!! They use a largely oversized drive to get the spindle up to speed fast and decel quick but you are still limited to the torque that a 10HP motor can make which equals no balls.


    When we run steel, we get endmills that don't last very long and chipped up from bouncing around. We take that exact same program and tooling to a Mazak and will make 10X the part count on the same cutter. Much less noise in the cut, more torque to get it done faster, and ultimately more accurate and productive.


    Those are HARD examples from our shops. I should not say that a Haas cannot cut steel but you need to know what you are getting into...

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    Well, you got your answer in the first reply. No, not that I agree with what he said, but that there are those who have had issues and are more than willing to share their every thought. I've even see many people who have never owned one bash them. It's fun to jump on board.

    The vast majority of those who own these machines, love them. I bought my first Haas in 1991 and it is still in use at my old shop, that I sold. It won't die!!!!

    It is very similar to the PC vs MAC debate. Every PC owner will agree that they sometimes have crashes and the proverbial blue screen! But, even though the MAC guys have similar issues and crashes, they won't admit it.

    I have many friends with MAC's and I get to see their issues as they occur. I sit there and see their crashes and bugs too. But, when you pay three times the price for a MAC that does the same job as the cheap PC, you have to justify the additional outlay of cash, so never admit any problems.

    If you peruse other sites and and forums, you will find people having problems with every machine brand out there. Most every machine that is more rigid and is considered as better, is also much more expensive. Truth is that you get what you pay for.

    I would not try to talk anyone out of buying a Haas, nor would I try to talk them out of buying an Okuma if they could afford it. Many good machines out there to buy.

    Haas has sold well over 100,000 machines, they must be doing something right.

    Mike

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    Probably because they grind their ways in a non temperature controlled shop in Southern California with the roll-up doors open. Been there...seen it.

    Yes, they make a good machine. But there are some parts, quite a few actually, that require the extra precision, the extra uuummmpphh, that Haas doesn't have. (As described in the posts before this one).

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    Um, what kind of steel? Stainless is not a sufficient answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chipload007 View Post
    Probably because they grind their ways in a non temperature controlled shop in Southern California with the roll-up doors open. Been there...seen it.

    Yes, they make a good machine. But there are some parts, quite a few actually, that require the extra precision, the extra uuummmpphh, that Haas doesn't have. (As described in the posts before this one).

    Grind the ways? You've seen it?

    They use linear ways.

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    I can really say nothing bad about Haas except rigidity. I have a VF6 and recently got a Mazak 510c (compararable to a vf3 travel). One example was I moved a program from the haas to the mazak that had alot of roughing with a 2.5" mitsubishi ajx in 1018 steel. Depth of cut was .05 and full width. The haas ran at 80% spindle load and I flipped inserts at 110%. Put the same thing on the mazak and it ran at 30% spindle load. I was able to max out doc for that cutter and speed the job up and never hit 70% load. The Mazak is almost as big casting wise as the vf6 if not bigger. Looking at the two spindles is telling as to the rigidity of them. Haas service has been excellent here with no real troubles with the machine other than some wiring issues they had with the insulation coming off the wire. I think for day in day out machining of steels there are better alternatives to Haas. I never really realized there was that much difference until I experienced it. Now I've got a 50taper Mitsui to get up and running. It will probably make the mazak 510c look like a wuss.

    Just checked program to make sure my cutting data was accurate.
    2.50 AJX on 4" extended shell mill holder
    .06 doc instead of .05
    full width cut
    262 ipm
    1018 steel
    Last edited by jelrod1; 06-24-2011 at 09:14 AM. Reason: corrected doc and added feedrate

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    Our shop has couple HAAS machines and latest toy (2010 VF3-SSYT) has been HUGE disappointment.

    - It was delivered 7 months late thanks to HFO and customs screwing things up

    - When it finally arrived we were able to run it almost two weeks untill spindle failed. It overheated and seized during light aluminum cutting at 12000rpm. Cause of failure was faulty spindle lube (air/oil cooled direct drive spindle) system, there was no oil at all going to spindle.

    - New control sucks. It has crashed more times than i can remember, usually something like this:
    haas_crash.jpg
    It just dies without warning, only button that works is main power switch at the back of the machine. New software versions has been updated several times. Getting better but...


    - Terrible surface finish problems. Picture tells more than 1000 words:
    haas_surface_finish.jpg
    (same tool/program/finish settings on both machines)

    Haas techs visited our shop numerous times (at least 6 times in 5 months) trying to get that finish better. Machine was ballbar tested several times and there was HUGE spikes at the axis transition points and X/Y squareness was out of tolerance.

    Eventually they did get it somewhat better by tweaking axis drive parametres but it still makes thumping sound and leaves vibration marks at those transition points if you mill circles with endmill. Our 1995 Fadal VMC15 with 20000hours on clock has A LOT better finish...

    And high speed toolchanger likes to throw tools. Tool locking mechanism was too tight and got stuck open randomly. Haas didnt believe us and it took almost a year to get new tool changer arm (and while waiting run this machine at 50% rapids).

    Compared to our earlier Haas VMCs this new one has been POS

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    There is a thread in the toyoda section about a multiple million dollar three machine cell that can't get up and running, fell free to poke around and see what all of the issues were.

    Based on your post one would be led to believe that if a MFG puts out a bad machine then they are all bad (even when your own experiences tell you otherwise).

    We could certainly find instances of bad machines spread throughout this forum of all brands....look through the mazak forum it will make you think they must be the worst mfg on the planet.

    I don't think you have really proven anything here....other than you can be a kvetch.





    Quote Originally Posted by Harter View Post
    Our shop has couple HAAS machines and latest toy (2010 VF3-SSYT) has been HUGE - It was delivered 7 months late thanks to HFO and customs screwing things up

    - When it finally arrived we were able to run it almost two weeks untill spindle failed. It overheated and seized during light aluminum cutting at 12000rpm. Cause of failure was faulty spindle lube (air/oil cooled direct drive spindle) system, there was no oil at all going to spindle.

    - New control sucks. It has crashed more times than i can remember, usually something like this:
    haas_crash.jpg
    It just dies without warning, only button that works is main power switch at the back of the machine. New software versions has been updated several times. Getting better but...


    - Terrible surface finish problems. Picture tells more than 1000 words:
    haas_surface_finish.jpg
    (same tool/program/finish settings on both machines)

    Haas techs visited our shop numerous times (at least 6 times in 5 months) trying to get that finish better. Machine was ballbar tested several times and there was HUGE spikes at the axis transition points and X/Y squareness was out of tolerance.

    Eventually they did get it somewhat better by tweaking axis drive parametres but it still makes thumping sound and leaves vibration marks at those transition points if you mill circles with endmill. Our 1995 Fadal VMC15 with 20000hours on clock has A LOT better finish...

    And high speed toolchanger likes to throw tools. Tool locking mechanism was too tight and got stuck open randomly. Haas didnt believe us and it took almost a year to get new tool changer arm (and while waiting run this machine at 50% rapids).

    Compared to our earlier Haas VMCs this new one has been POS

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    "I don't think you have really proven anything here....other than you can be a kvetch."

    Obviously, D Rey, you are affiliated with Haas.

    Most anyone that purchased any manufacturer's machine and had this kind of trouble would complain. Yes, pretty much any brand can turn out a lemon. It's how the manufacturer deals with the problems that sets them apart. One of the Toyoda tales involved a VMC that was replaced with a new one - no dicking around. Sounds like that is what Haas should have done with this one.

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    Default chasing tollerance all day long

    I have worked on both Haas verticals and sl series lathes. First the mill, yes it was fast and could hog material (aluminum) off in a hurry. The problem is that they can not interpolate round holes and hold positioning tollerance any closer than true position of .0019. We ended just using the haas mills for ruff cutting casting's. We finished them on a Okuma.
    The turning center's are even worse. In 2004 we replaced a 1982 hardinge superslant with a 2004 Haas sl20 because we could no longer find replacement boards for the hardinge. The hardinge was a very rigid and could hold tollerances of .0002" all day long. Tool life was excellent and surface finish was superb. The Haas was a huge disappointment to say the least. Again, yes it was fast and had a great looking paint job, but it turned out to be nothing more than a polished turd! I chased offsets up to .008" from start to end of day and insert life was cut by 2/3 on proven jobs the hardinge ran. The "Vector" drive was loud and the hydraulic pump was too.
    I would never by another Haas. The money you save buying these machinies up front will soon be eaten up by scrap parts and broken tools.

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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Harter View Post
    Our shop has couple HAAS machines and latest toy (2010 VF3-SSYT) has been HUGE disappointment.

    - It was delivered 7 months late thanks to HFO and customs screwing things up

    - When it finally arrived we were able to run it almost two weeks untill spindle failed. It overheated and seized during light aluminum cutting at 12000rpm. Cause of failure was faulty spindle lube (air/oil cooled direct drive spindle) system, there was no oil at all going to spindle.

    - New control sucks. It has crashed more times than i can remember, usually something like this:
    haas_crash.jpg
    It just dies without warning, only button that works is main power switch at the back of the machine. New software versions has been updated several times. Getting better but...


    - Terrible surface finish problems. Picture tells more than 1000 words:
    haas_surface_finish.jpg
    (same tool/program/finish settings on both machines)

    Haas techs visited our shop numerous times (at least 6 times in 5 months) trying to get that finish better. Machine was ballbar tested several times and there was HUGE spikes at the axis transition points and X/Y squareness was out of tolerance.

    Eventually they did get it somewhat better by tweaking axis drive parametres but it still makes thumping sound and leaves vibration marks at those transition points if you mill circles with endmill. Our 1995 Fadal VMC15 with 20000hours on clock has A LOT better finish...

    And high speed toolchanger likes to throw tools. Tool locking mechanism was too tight and got stuck open randomly. Haas didnt believe us and it took almost a year to get new tool changer arm (and while waiting run this machine at 50% rapids).

    Compared to our earlier Haas VMCs this new one has been POS
    OUCH!!!!!! I would make them take it back and exchange it. I cant imagine what would happen to our shop if we bought one and it didnt work.

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    It gets even better. Last reply from Haas europe regarding surface finish issues was (after the machine was adjusted so that it was "in factory tolerance"):

    "it is what it is, SS series is not meant for (3D) contouring with good finish"

    And one thing i forgot to mention. When the machine has been sitting for a while all axis start buzzing. You can feel that the table is vibrating at fairly high freq. Vibration stops instantly when you jog any of the 3 axis and stays away for while.

    Dont get me wrong, i still think Haas VMCs are good bang for buck but...

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    There's been a few other complaints about the SS series, and its not the first picture of finishes like that. " Takes more than racing stripes to go fast "

    Personally I didn't feel confident enough in the brand between posts here, and also a few I've seen in person, to put them on my shopping list. I went with a 2412, it was easy to know what I was getting with that one, and next on the list was a doosan DNM400 if I was to spend any more for a higher performance machine.

    That said, haas fills their market, for the most part. Some places just maybe just spend a little more time figuring out what might really serve their needs best, but that's how it is.

    If Haas ever brought back the mini-lathe that was gangtooled, for a reasonable price, I'd give it some consideration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harter View Post

    "it is what it is, SS series is not meant for (3D) contouring with good finish"

    And one thing i forgot to mention. When the machine has been sitting for a while all axis start buzzing. You can feel that the table is vibrating at fairly high freq. Vibration stops instantly when you jog any of the 3 axis and stays away for while.

    Harter.


    I don't know how it is in Sweden, but I do know this. Here in the US the HFO does have the power and clout to pull such machines off your floor and offer a brand new replacement OR refund your total cost.
    I have seen it twice in my area and it was also offered to me when I had a little beef with one of my new machines.

    Don't get me wrong, I am a very happy Haas user but that does not stop me from trying to point out the shortcomings of their machines or in some cases the sheer stupidity behind those shortcomings.

    Viper

    I agree with some of what you are saying, but strongly disagree that the Haas isn't meant to cut steel all day long. Even my Minimill spends less than 30% of it's life with AL, but the VF4 with gearbox cuts 90%+ stainless, inco, TI and a small amount of plain steel jobs.
    My parts are not large enough to be needing any insert cutters ( other than facing ), but up-to 3/4" endmills the Haas cuts just about as fast and good as most other brands.
    I do wish they'd read and do something about this statement of yours:

    That being said, I think they are scared to step up and build a real machine with real mass and real power. They have all the ability to do it but I think they enjoy staying in the shadows with the business model of "ours is not as capable because it is cheaper"
    because that is the heart of the problem they're going to be facing in the not so distant future when other brands start lowering their costs for much better machines.
    To some degree it is already here, in my opinion a Mori Duraturn is 2x the machine of an SL20 ( or SL30 ), yet carries only a $20 - 25K premium.
    The recent "upgrades" of the VF and ST series are mostly a gimmick, nothing really earth shattering, in one instance I know of some of it is even downright retarded ( ST20 ).

    Nonetheless, they are reasonable machines and are good value for the money.
    And just as you've stated, I too wish they do build a couple of models that are to be in direct competition with the better built Japanese ones.
    I believe they are big enough now to financially afford a few models where they simply break-even with costs vs. qty of machines built.

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    Considering the rather reasonable price of a few mazak machines made in the US. I too think Haas could put some work into making a "serious" stronger machine, and even if it cost more in the end there's probably enough people who like the Haas control and service that they would pay the same as what is asked for a mazak. They might also be stretching themselves a bit thin with offering so many different sizes that are so darn close, could probably drop half the line and concentrate on the important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VSMI View Post
    "I don't think you have really proven anything here....other than you can be a kvetch."

    Obviously, D Rey, you are affiliated with Haas.
    No but I am affiliated with logic.

    They are accepting applications by the way.

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