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  1. #21
    westk Guest

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    We have 1 Haas at the shop I work in. It's a VF9. You can hardly run tools on the Haas that if you ran the same depth of cut and rpm on say an OKK VM900 you can run about 250% of the feed rate and still have room to increase feeds and DoC.

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    The way that I look at is you have to do the best job you can with what you have. Not every shop has a budget of $500,000.00 per machine and the type of work you do may not warrant a high price tag. For what we do the Haas is an excellent machine for the money, I really like them. Now when I have to take a job that I normally run on the Haas and I have to put it in our 30 taper Brother machine I have to be more creative to get the part done in a reasonable time or as close to the Haas cycle time as I can get. That just means light depths of cuts but at a higher feed rate, maybe an extra spring pass after finish milling. I have had to juggle jobs around on the equipment we have for years so you learn how to get the job done and still make money for the owners and the Haas has always been good to us. I'm sure we would all love to have the best of everything to do our jobs but that's just not how life works.

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    I have a .50 BMG that will punch through a full sized oak tree at 600 yds.

    None of my 5.56s will do that. I should throw them all away, worthless pieces of junk.

    I hear ARs are all throw away guns.

    The .50 costs ten times as much and costs ten times as much per round but why should that matter?

    One gun should work the same as any other regardless of cost right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by westk View Post
    We have 1 Haas at the shop I work in. It's a VF9. You can hardly run tools on the Haas that if you ran the same depth of cut and rpm on say an OKK VM900 you can run about 250% of the feed rate and still have room to increase feeds and DoC.
    On that note, take this as an example.

    I am machining (relatively) huge block of TI parts for a customer. They have 50 taper Matsuuras and are using 1.25 and 2" insert cutters to hog 70% of the material away, then go to a 1/2 and 5/16 endmill to finish the rest.
    My VF4 hasn't a prayer running those two insert cutters in TI, not even with the gearbox.

    Ok, since they need to offload the Matsuuras for another job, I took the parts and put them on the VF4. The difference is that insted of the big hoggers, I just programmed plain ol' 1/2" uncoated endmills to rough the stuff out. 750RPM 7.5IPM, all the way through. Slotting is done @ .25" increments, the rest is .200 engagement climb @ .6 depth.
    Their cycle time ( I have the program and opsheets ) - 6h 12min
    My cycle time ( after 78 parts ) - 3h 52min.

    Could they push them insert cutters more? Not sure. Maybe in some cases, but I do see the setup sheets stating insert checks at a couple points, and replacements if needed - mid-run- because the next feature would wipe them out.
    I OTOH broke the ops up into much smaller segments, so I can just hit go and not worry for 50 minutes 'cos I know each endmill lasts approx. 250 minutes of cutting for about $30/endmill.

    The accuracy and surface finish is right where they need to be, while the cycle time is considerably less.
    So please tell me how can that OKK complete this particular job faster?
    Tell me if on the OKK the cutter itself would not be of an issue? Tell me if you can push better than .0035 IPT on a 1/2" endmill, or that you can run 1000SFM on TI with it?

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    If all you had to do all day long was punch a hole in that oak at 600yrds. Would there be any point to having that 5.56 shoved away in a corner collecting dust? or to poke at it all day long with that 5.56? Some work requires the higher end pricier(not that much more $$) machine in order to get the proper ROI, just business, gotta do the math, just like some targets need the .50bmg. There's a wide range of work out there, and 1 brand ain't ever gonna be able to do it all with the highest efficiency, and hit the price target, forget that.

    Some people just got bitten in the ass thinking they were getting an equally built/designed machine for less $. If they buy it fully understanding what it is, what its real power is, they can't really bitch much beyond that unless its a real lemon. Just like my little 2412 is nothing special at all, I knew what I was getting, now if the specs and rep guy told me it did tool changes in 1 second, and here I am looking at this thing doing them in 7 seconds, I'd be pissed, but I knew how it was gonna be, specs were exact, and it does what I need for what I could afford right now.

    A couple reps tried to push the TL lathes for a place I know, I doubt any Haas rep ever tried turning 10" inconel... by the time you get to the model(TL3B) that has a low gear, you're better off buying a big Romi and I think $ ended up better, and it has way more balls and other cool features. I know if they just listened to the rep, which is all quite a few shops do, and bought the TL lathe, they wouldn't be getting the machine they need and someone would get pissed.

    Its funny how many people assume a mazak or Mori will be 4 times the price of a similar sized Haas...
    It is nice that Haas seemed to help open a more competitive CNC machine market, kinda forced a few other builders to lower their prices while still building the high end machines they're known for. That said I know 2 places that were disappointed with their mazaks, one because of service, one cause they weren't sold/didn't buy the machine their work needed.

    Shop wisely whatever the brand is, and don't think its costs more just because of the name

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    On that note, take this as an example.

    I am machining (relatively) huge block of TI parts for a customer. They have 50 taper Matsuuras and are using 1.25 and 2" insert cutters to hog 70% of the material away, then go to a 1/2 and 5/16 endmill to finish the rest.
    My VF4 hasn't a prayer running those two insert cutters in TI, not even with the gearbox.

    Ok, since they need to offload the Matsuuras for another job, I took the parts and put them on the VF4. The difference is that insted of the big hoggers, I just programmed plain ol' 1/2" uncoated endmills to rough the stuff out. 750RPM 7.5IPM, all the way through. Slotting is done @ .25" increments, the rest is .200 engagement climb @ .6 depth.
    Their cycle time ( I have the program and opsheets ) - 6h 12min
    My cycle time ( after 78 parts ) - 3h 52min.

    Could they push them insert cutters more? Not sure. Maybe in some cases, but I do see the setup sheets stating insert checks at a couple points, and replacements if needed - mid-run- because the next feature would wipe them out.
    I OTOH broke the ops up into much smaller segments, so I can just hit go and not worry for 50 minutes 'cos I know each endmill lasts approx. 250 minutes of cutting for about $30/endmill.

    The accuracy and surface finish is right where they need to be, while the cycle time is considerably less.
    So please tell me how can that OKK complete this particular job faster?
    Tell me if on the OKK the cutter itself would not be of an issue? Tell me if you can push better than .0035 IPT on a 1/2" endmill, or that you can run 1000SFM on TI with it?

    WOW! We have run into several parts similar that were just not programmed efficiently and though I have no specifics, I think it is a fair bet that the Matsuuras were not being optimized or the programming was shit. $$$ for you!! Sounds like you solved your problem and made some coin doing it. I would be jumping up and down for a week to shave nearly 3hrs off a program.

    In one of our bigger hog outs recently, I programmed the part right where it should have been and cycle should have been 20 min. Due to the lack of power, I stalled the spindle multiple times and ended up with a cycle of 50min...

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    Quote Originally Posted by viper View Post
    I think it is a fair bet that the Matsuuras were not being optimized or the programming was shit. $$$ for you!!
    I'm sure there are places to shave here and there, but since they've already made well upwards of 500 of those things, I'm sure some time was spent on optimization already.

    As far as stalling the spindle, I don't care who says it, you ain't gonna stall a Haas gearbox spindle with anything smaller than a 1" endmill. That I'm willing to stand up and offer my machine as a demo.
    You will break the tool.
    or
    You will destroy the holder.
    or
    You will break the collet chuck.
    or
    You will send the part/vise through the door ( yup, I've seen that )
    BUT
    You will NOT stall the spindle in low gear, which is up-to 1400 RPM.

    At that speed you likely won't be machining with standard endmills in SS or exotics, at least not with any seriously deep cuts.
    High feed inserted cutters OTOH are a different story and I'll stand with you saying that they do not really belong on any 40 taper Haas.

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    I don't think we have used low range 1hr on any machine yet. Probably would if it extended up to 2500 or so though. Mostly Aluminums so we make the spindle out and go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by viper View Post
    I don't think we have used low range 1hr on any machine yet. Probably would if it extended up to 2500 or so though. Mostly Aluminums so we make the spindle out and go.


    Viper

    This TI job on hand uses high gear for a 3/8 carbide drill and a 5/16 endmill.
    The rest of it ( about 3h 30 mins ) is in low gear.

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    What was your target surface speed and which blend of Ti? Just curious.

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    ACtually I've started with the standard 80 SFM just to dial in the toolpaths, and when that was right I've just ad-hoc upped things to get time down.
    I've kept the full-slot to 80 SFM, went to about 100 for the rest of the roughing.
    Finishing is @ 150 SFM/ .0025IPT.
    I'm sure at the cost of some tool life, I could push a little higher SFM, but since the first and second ops are 50 and 47 minutes long respectively with a single endmill, I know I have 6 parts that I can just hit the button and walk away from comfortably. After the 6th run I just change the endmill ( good, bad or indifferent ) and keep going.

    The material is AMS4928, which is an aerospace variety 6AL4V.

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    I am obviously a bit biased to Haas machines (see user name) but I am not blind to some of their shortcomings either.

    I often relate a Haas machine in automotive examples. You have a very nice Chevy,Ford, etc car (Haas) that performs quite well and is a bit sporty to boot. Then you have a nice BMW or Audi (Mori, Okuma, etc) that just blows everything out of the water. Relate to performance and speed.

    Or look at a nice F150 truck (Haas). It gets around real nice and can even haul some good loads or a big trailer. But step up to that nice F350 powerstroke and man you can do some serious work. Relate to HP and rigidity.

    Haas has obviously found their nich market and has done extremely well; budget minded job shops. I think their mill line is quite good but has its share of duds. Lathes I feel are average but are getting better.

    As stated in another post, I to would like to see Haas step up the rigidity acrooss their line. Not to mention they also need to get rid of the damn tool changer wheel and use a chain style; especially for anything bigger than the 24pocket tool changer.

    Get what works the best with what you can afford.

    Here's to productive machines everywhere!

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    Quote Originally Posted by D. Rey View Post
    Grind the ways? You've seen it?

    They use linear ways.
    What's your point? Do you not think linear guide ways are ground?

    I was there about 7 years ago in January. It was about 53 degrees outside and they were grinding ways and spindles with the roll up doors open...just saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    ACtually I've started with the standard 80 SFM just to dial in the toolpaths, and when that was right I've just ad-hoc upped things to get time down.
    I've kept the full-slot to 80 SFM, went to about 100 for the rest of the roughing.
    Finishing is @ 150 SFM/ .0025IPT.
    I'm sure at the cost of some tool life, I could push a little higher SFM, but since the first and second ops are 50 and 47 minutes long respectively with a single endmill, I know I have 6 parts that I can just hit the button and walk away from comfortably. After the 6th run I just change the endmill ( good, bad or indifferent ) and keep going.

    The material is AMS4928, which is an aerospace variety 6AL4V.
    I think my experienced went to the extreme side of the low range with a 5" saw at I think 50rpm or so. Let me say, NO BALLS... I think the newer machines would have handled it better but that was the only gear box machine we had and best chance of getting it done. Feed rate was half of what it should have been which hurt tool life in 17-4 H900.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chipload007 View Post
    What's your point? Do you not think linear guide ways are ground?

    I was there about 7 years ago in January. It was about 53 degrees outside and they were grinding ways and spindles with the roll up doors open...just saying.
    Haas doesn't grind linear guides. They definitely mill those guideway mounting surfaces in the manner you're mentioning though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chipload007 View Post
    What's your point? Do you not think linear guide ways are ground?

    I was there about 7 years ago in January. It was about 53 degrees outside and they were grinding ways and spindles with the roll up doors open...just saying.

    They buy the linear rails. They do not grind them.

    What you saw being ground was not the ways.

    Since you insisted on an explanation....

    You have no clue what you are talking about. That is my point.


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    Quote Originally Posted by D. Rey View Post
    They buy the linear rails. They do not grind them.

    What you saw being ground was not the ways.

    Since you insisted on an explanation....

    You have no clue what you are talking about. That is my point.

    Most machine tool companies make their own linear guide ways so that they can preload them to the specific machine requirements. The rails are ground. Sorry you don't understand.

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    Hum, don't they use Rexroth rails? there's a few brands who use them. I bet making rails and trucks is quite a refined process when it comes to the CNC rails.

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    Haas does not grind their own rails (what you refer to as ways), they buy them pre-made, pre-ground by another company.


    What you saw being ground was not the "ways".

    I can't be any more clear than that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chipload007 View Post
    Most machine tool companies make their own linear guide ways so that they can preload them to the specific machine requirements. The rails are ground. Sorry you don't understand.



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