Why Does HAAS Have a Bad Rep? (To some people) - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Haas has a bad rap because people compare them to better machines...or they don't do their homework and expect the machine to perform just like its advertised. Maybe it's false advertisement...but they didn't do their homework so shame on both parties.

    They grind their ways with the door open...personally I highly doubt that...I'd even go so far as to stake "your" life on it (joke)...but even if you where correct...so what! Provided dimensions were held why would you care. On the high end machines they send a guy out with a chisel and he just shaves at the ways to get them right. Okay it's a scraper and the guys got more talent with it then one would think possible...but to an untrained eye...he's just chiseling away.

    Why do Haas machines get a bad rap...just because.

    I have High end machines and Haas's. they both have their place...just don't confuse one with the other and you'll be okay...that is don't take out your Chevy Camaro and expect to stay on the tail of a Porche on a winding rode at speed...you'll get there...just gonna take a little longer.

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    I'd like to know what % of the hours in the average shop could be shortened by more rigid / tighter / more HP machines?

    I have some pretty good sized lathes and a pretty good sized mill. (Along with many more common sized machines. ) Of the jobs that I have had in my big machines, seldom am I able to utilize anywhere's near the power or rigidity that I have.

    A) Many times the parts doo not lend themselves able to be leaned on too hard. Be it that they are flimsy on their own, or the manner of holding them to git to the features desired, there is a grip liability to be considered.

    B) I have spent many hours running tiny tools on big parts. A bloody Acroloc would have been well suited had it been big enough.

    C) Just what is the average spindle up-time on the average machine in the average shop? If you run enything less than full production on it, it prolly is waiting for work some days. And then what is set-up/prog time before pushing the green button and inserting the Sphincter stop?

    D) Sometimes there is small werk neded done on big parts as well. A 40 taper machine is all that is required, but you need a 100" table!

    On the time lost to reduced F/DOC for the average machine, how long before you are ahead? Figger interest while your at it!

    If you can't git the surface finish that you are looking for, then sure, that is a problem. If you are simply having HP/TRQ issues, it may take you the entire life of the machine to start to see ROI.

    The higher % of spindle run time your machine has - the more the tougher machine would pay back.


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    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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  4. #43
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    Many times the parts doo not lend themselves able to be leaned on too hard. Be it that they are flimsy on their own, or the manner of holding them to git to the features desired, there is a grip liability to be considered.
    Best point so far. Small parts made of Al in the 25$/piece and below price range are usually fine on smaller machines. We give them to a guy who has a shop full off small Emcos. Doing those on a bigger machine would have higher fixed costs and is absolutely unnecessary.
    I often ask myself how man yshops started with one of those machines similar in size to a Haas.

    Cheers,
    Johann

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  6. #44
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    I have a customer with 1 ea. VF-7,8,9 Haas mills (50 taper, 30HP), and an older Supermax Max-3 with a 40 taper spindle and 7-10HP. The Supermax with a 3" shell mill will eat any of the VF's lunch in steel, even 1018. The Supermax purrs along and the VF's rattle and shake the building if pushed anywhere near the cuts the old Supermax does using the same cutter. So the smaller stuff goes to the Supermax and the bigger stuff to the Kuraki

    The VF's will seize spindles if left running at 6K overnite, they are rated at 7K+. They use coolant to cool the spindle cartrige, when the coolant tank gets too hot, you loose a spindle. The Mori MV-40, Mazaks and the Kuraki have oil coolers to regulate the temperature of the spindle. They had to buy a couple of Mazaks to make some of the parts they bought the last Haas for. All 3 VF's were down the day the first Mazak arrived, and it was making chips first.

    The Haas service uses methods to level a machine I have never seen before. Spend an hour or so leveling, then recut the table?? Still can't cut parallel parts, repeat the same process, 3,4 or more times....

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitandmiss View Post
    The Haas service uses methods to level a machine I have never seen before. Spend an hour or so leveling, then recut the table?? Still can't cut parallel parts, repeat the same process, 3,4 or more times....
    Yeah. Right.

    Dumbass service guy is the machine's fault heh?

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    Funny how so many on this forum are strongly buy American, but not when it comes to their BIG money, no, much prefer Japanese please number one son.

    Sorry if its already been said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jkilroy View Post
    Funny how so many on this forum are strongly buy American, but not when it comes to their BIG money, no, much prefer Japanese please number one son.

    Sorry if its already been said.
    If you can find me an American made machine that is truly the equal of a Mori Seiki, Okuma, Makino, Brother, Mazak, et al. we will happily buy it.

    Our Brother tapping center runs 20 hours a day 6 days a week. The only thing I have even seen replaced was the cycle start button.

    We have Okuma lathes from 8 in. to 26 in. We had a large machine crash hard enough to move it across the floor. We had it back in production in 2 days.

    I wonder, how many Haas users have ever actually used a high end Japanese (or European) machine? Ox is probably right that most people could get by with a Haas, but many others cannot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    If you can find me an American made machine that is truly the equal of a Mori Seiki, Okuma, Makino, Brother, Mazak, et al. we will happily buy it.

    Our Brother tapping center runs 20 hours a day 6 days a week. The only thing I have even seen replaced was the cycle start button.

    We have Okuma lathes from 8 in. to 26 in. We had a large machine crash hard enough to move it across the floor. We had it back in production in 2 days.

    I wonder, how many Haas users have ever actually used a high end Japanese (or European) machine? Ox is probably right that most people could get by with a Haas, but many others cannot.
    I concede...I have never run a high end HMC but I've owned a few Japanese lathes, Mazak, Nakamura.

    I've seen the big 500k machines run up close and I know they are fast, quiet and move through material like nobodies business. I'd love to have one.

    None of that means you can't make good parts on a Haas though.

    So I don't see how it is germane to the discussion other than to provide the perspective that there are manufacturers out there that build more robust machines, an obvious fact of any manufactured good.

    In addition none of what you posted proves that there not people out there that have their issues with the so called" high end" machines.

    Look through the Mazak forum. Tell me they have less problems than the Haas guys. Can that be explained?

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    Quote Originally Posted by D. Rey View Post

    Look through the Mazak forum. Tell me they have less problems than the Haas guys. Can that be explained?
    LOL! Every "problem" topic on the front page of the Mazak forum is about a machine that was made when Haas was still making indexers for Fadal. I'd say that's pretty good.

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    (I'd'a said Too Shay, but I don't know how to spell it. So I won't.)

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    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    So WILL Haas service help you on that 20+ year old indexer? Nope, no support, they send you to third party service. I am having trouble getting parts (a limit switch) for a VF0 less than 10 years old, they say it's too old! Say WHAT?

    Yet Mitsubishi will repair the power supply for a 25 year old control.

    Joe778 is right, the posts for Mazak and others is for older machines 20 years or older.

    The Monarchs (Mills), Lucas, and many others are just spare parts providers for their CNC's that were made 30-40 years ago, a few are still making chips but when the controls finally get too problematic, they will go to the junk pile too. Along with Mazak, Mori and others of the same vintage.

    The last Gotcha that has turned many large shop owners, (that pay for the machine once it is running) away is this. The machine was paid for months ago, there is a very hot job on it and the "You haven't paid yet" alarm comes up and it takes 2-3 days for Haas service to show up and clear the alarm! It does wonders for repeat business. Seen it happen several times.

    It has been asked by ewlsey :I wonder, how many Haas users have ever actually used a high end Japanese (or European) machine?

    Or for that matter an older American machine - Cinc, Lucas, Monarch, G&L, J&L, and the list goes on, even manual machines from the '50's retrofitted with a CNC?
    Last edited by hitandmiss; 06-29-2011 at 11:23 AM. Reason: spellin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe788 View Post
    LOL! Every "problem" topic on the front page of the Mazak forum is about a machine that was made when Haas was still making indexers for Fadal. I'd say that's pretty good.
    That would be cool if it were true.

    Took me all of five seconds to see it is not.

    You know I think there is a certain burn that must occur when a new mazak owner discovers that just because it says mazak on the front does not make it perfect....and there must be a moment when they think....man, I could have had three spindles turning instead of one for the same price.

    It hurts too much to think about so they come on these forums and tell wives tales about stopping haas spindles with their hands and machines blowing up, tool changers that ricochet around the room and demons that are spawned by the control ....my buddy had this and that...and on and on...it goes.

    You know they grind their ways with the doors open!

    LOL

    Keep em coming

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  18. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by D. Rey View Post
    That would be cool if it were true.

    Took me all of five seconds to see it is not.

    You know I think there is a certain burn that must occur when a new mazak owner discovers that just because it says mazak on the front does not make it perfect....and there must be a moment when they think....man, I could have had three spindles turning instead of one for the same price.

    It hurts too much to think about so they come on these forums and tell wives tales about stopping haas spindles with their hands and machines blowing up, tool changers that ricochet around the room and demons that are spawned by the control ....my buddy had this and that...and on and on...it goes.

    You know they grind their ways with the doors open!

    LOL

    Keep em coming
    I can't understand what you are trying to prove.

    Do you honestly think that a Haas machine is the secret weapon that every shop needs to suddenly become profitable? You get what you pay for. That is the simplest rule of economics.

    No successful business would buy a high end machine when a Haas would do the exact same job. But a Haas is just not up to the task for those shops.

    Expensive machines have expensive repair bills. That is part of the deal.

    When you crash an F1 car it costs millions. It can also go 0-100 km/hr in about 2 seconds. A Ford F150 is pretty cheap to maintain, but no amount of wishful thinking will ever make it accelerate as fast as the F1 car.

    Most people probably don't need to go 0-100 in 2 seconds. For those that do, an F150 is not the right machine.


    This is starting to sound like the posts about the Tormach machines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitandmiss View Post


    The last Gotcha that has turned many large shop owners, (that pay for the machine once it is running) away is this. The machine was paid for months ago, there is a very hot job on it and the "You haven't paid yet" alarm comes up and it takes 2-3 days for Haas service to show up and clear the alarm! It does wonders for repeat business. Seen it happen several times.

    It has been asked by ewlsey :I wonder, how many Haas users have ever actually used a high end Japanese (or European) machine?

    You're just a [email protected] troll ain't ya?
    First, you have 800 hours to get that message in the first place. If you have financed the machine through your own source, you better have signed off on the acceptance form well before then. When you did, your bank released the funds to the HFO, who in turn immediately receives the permanent release code from Haas and provide it to you.
    If however that did not take place ( for whatever reason ), as long as you're up to date with your payments you will get the release code with a single phonecall.
    Now, considering you get a 50 hour warning BEFORE the ALarm144 pops up and locks your machine, your 3 day waiting period comment is just utter garbage.
    Not to mention that the service guy doesn't have to show up to enter the code, just as they don't have to show up to enable ANY other control feature.


    And yes, I do have 2 Mori lathes ( 08 and 09 vintage, one is an SY ) so I know what they can do.
    I also have 2 Haas lathes and know what THEY can do.
    Not the same, but capable nonetheless.

    So, do us all a favor and either buy a Haas to find your own facts to bitch about, or shut the [email protected] up about I've heard this or that.

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    Seymour,
    2 of the times were Not financed, they were paid in full upon acceptance, Haas WOULD NOT provide the release codes, Haas service had to do it themselves. Seems the salesman failed to notify service.

    Yes I DO own a Haas they won't support. And I have customers that have machines that are having problems with getting parts from them, and getting timely service.

    Last point: Seen and heard aren't the same thing.


    Just was answering the OP's question.
    Bye

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    Quote Originally Posted by D. Rey View Post
    That would be cool if it were true.

    Took me all of five seconds to see it is not.
    I'm not sure if your front page is different than mine? But the requests for help that I see are for ancient machines.

    and there must be a moment when they think....man, I could have had three spindles turning instead of one for the same price.
    This is the most common misconception, and the reason I don't have any Haas machines. Haas machines are NOT inexpensive. By the time you bump up to an SS machine, and add some generic options, you're within 10-15% of a Japanese machine. Haas makes fine machines, and if they really were HALF the price of similarly equipped competitors, I'd probably own a few. As it is, the price:performance ratio just doesn't work for me.


    It hurts too much to think about so they come on these forums and tell wives tales about stopping haas spindles with their hands and machines blowing up, tool changers that ricochet around the room and demons that are spawned by the control ....my buddy had this and that...and on and on...it goes.

    You know they grind their ways with the doors open!
    LOL! Welcome to the internet!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitandmiss View Post
    Seymour,
    2 of the times were Not financed, they were paid in full upon acceptance, Haas WOULD NOT provide the release codes, Haas service had to do it themselves. Seems the salesman failed to notify service.

    Service is NEVER NEEDED!!! to activate the codes!
    You activate it using the codes provided to you by the HFO!

    Sometimes ( I've had that with my VF4) you don't get the code during installation. That is because Haas provides it not to you, rather to the HFO upon receipt of full payment. The HFO has 30 days to pay Haas corporate for the machine, ocasionally that doesn't happen until sometime after the install.
    BUT!
    When they do pay for the machine AND you've ( or your bank ) paid for the machine, the HFO will send you an E-mail, mail or phonecall to GIVE YOU !!! the permanent release code.
    If that is not what happened to you, then the beef is not with Haas or the machine, rather the HFO .

    And to say something else, my Mori NL2000SY has a somewhat similar activation code. In this case it is for geographic location verification, but I was told it also clicks in if the machine is moved by the riggers and a sensor is triggered. In the Mori's case it won't even power up until the code is entered.

    So there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitandmiss View Post
    Seymour,
    2 of the times were Not financed, they were paid in full upon acceptance, Haas WOULD NOT provide the release codes, Haas service had to do it themselves. Seems the salesman failed to notify service.

    Yes I DO own a Haas they won't support. And I have customers that have machines that are having problems with getting parts from them, and getting timely service.
    What part won't they support? I thought even if they don't support a particular part, they will at least have some solution, ie upgrade to a new part/module to get the machine going. Instead of buying just one part, you may end up with new parts and a new board. I guess that's the trade off for having relatively inexpensive replacement parts. You don't have the margin to stock your parts as far back.

    I am happy to have my Haas. With Fadal gone, and most domestic machine tool manufacturers gone, with my budget, the alternative was to buy foreign machines.

    Sometimes I look at the tool marks on my parts and wonder if a "high end" machine can do a better job but as of right now, the parts are fine and I did not have that extra 20~30% to spend.

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    The code thing is nothing against Haas or nothing that makes them alone in it thats for sure.
    I asked about the mazak relocation device that locks the machine if its moved/tilted, and was told a tech has to be sent to reset, wouldn't just give out the new code over the phone. I didn't get a price or what the deal was in that regard but I know the only tech for the area is a few hours drive away, and I doubt I'd be high on the priority list considering the number of machines around. I guess they wanna see it is where it is, otherwise it could be shipped to Iran... so yeah...to me it had lost value in that regard just for potential PITA or future added cost and potentially hurting future resale value. That said, mazak was the only brand with a tech "sort of " in the area, everyone else has to be flown in, again more cashola.

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    I've been on the service tech side of the industry for many years , and I have worked on many machines ! I've often wondered why so many people are dead set against Haas . They build a really good machine ! I think the problem comes from end users who have other (heavier) machine tools , and they tend to compare them instead of looking at the practical and obvious uses. A Haas is a great machine ,but you wont hog mill with it in the way you would a big 50 taper Matsuura or Mori .
    Haas machines are built to be used within certain parameters that most end users with a problem exceed . Then they complain that the machine sucks . Dollar for dollar and for the intended purposes I dare a Japanese ,Korean or any other company to provide the machine ,support, parts availability ,or common sense you get in a Haas for the same money. It aint gonna happen !

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