Why are used haas so close to price to a new haas?
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  1. #1
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    Default Why are used haas so close to price to a new haas?

    I had a shop fire a month or 2 ago and burnt up the 2 late 90s Fadals and A Tormach I had. It was more of a hobby shop with dreams to make it my full time gig in the future. So I’m now rebuilding my shop and I have all but decided that I want a haas. My main reason is I want to be able to do smallish 5 axis work and haas makes 5 axis so easy with all there free YouTube videos. So I was thinking about getting a vf2 and then later down the line upgrading all the nessisary stuff to get a TRT160 on the machine.



    So, now I got to ask, why are used not super old haas VMCs so pricey? I have 50k and I thought that would take me a lot farther than I am seeing on the used market. It seems like it will only get me a early 2010s. At that price it seems like getting a new one with exactly the options I want on it is a better deal. I priced out a vf2ss with what I want on it and it was 72k and that wasn’t even counting their 10-15% discount they seem to always be having....

    So am I just not seeing the “good deals” on the used market or am I better off buying new....

    I wanted to spend 50k but I do have a hard max budget of about 74k so I could swing new but there goes my budget for new tooling and vises.

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    well 1 thing is they are well liked , 2 they are extremely easy to use. and if the difference is little between them, most would prefer buying the new with a warranty for a bit more. I personally prefer the older machines because of the door override makes it easier to poke my head in while doing setups. they also used a fair amount of over the counter parts , another were easy to work on. and didn't always require you to purchase the parts from haas. on the newer control it will not allow the user to access any of the factory parameters. a haas tech must be paid to drive out to your location to make any simple adjustments.

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    Just buy new and finance it.

    You don't want someone else's old clapped out Haas.... Plus the NGC control is badass.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    I absolutely refuse to get into debt for a machine that might end up just being a hobby machine for the rest of its life. I would sooner go out and just buy another late 90s Fadal for 10-12k...

    But if I can get 0-5 years old haas with my 50k, I would rather do that

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Just buy new and finance it.

    You don't want someone else's old clapped out Haas.... Plus the NGC control is badass.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    What is NGC?

    I would like to own new as I hope to keep this machine for the next 20 years...

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    Don't take offense to this but....with that mentality, you will be hard pressed to progress past the hobby phase of a machine shop.

    If you're fine with an old fadal, maybe that would be the best option for your shop, leaves you plenty of cash on reserve and you're already used to the control.

    Problem with used Haas machines is the older controls aren't supported anymore and you never know what you're going to get. Could be great, could be a pile of shit.



    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse_92683 View Post
    What is NGC?

    I would like to own new as I hope to keep this machine for the next 20 years...
    Next gen control. It's the latest control from Haas. We have 12 Haas machines with this new control and everyone loves it.



    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Next gen control. It's the latest control from Haas. We have 12 Haas machines with this new control and everyone loves it.



    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    Ah, didn’t know it was called that.... that’s one of main reasons I wanna switch from Fadal to haas.... besides the fact that Fadal isn’t really around these days (even though they kind of are now)

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Don't take offense to this but....with that mentality, you will be hard pressed to progress past the hobby phase of a machine shop.

    If you're fine with an old fadal, maybe that would be the best option for your shop, leaves you plenty of cash on reserve and you're already used to the control.

    Problem with used Haas machines is the older controls aren't supported anymore and you never know what you're going to get. Could be great, could be a pile of shit.



    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


    I understand that getting a loan works great for some shops but I have seen to many machine shops near me go under for having too much overhead (I sold coolant for 5 years and had about 30 machine shops as customers). My reasoning is I want to quit my day job and machine full time (I would barely call it working, why was I not born a machinist!) but if it just stays as a hobby and my hobby makes me money.... I’m okay with that too

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    They are worth so much used as they are nothing but a disposable hunk of [email protected]!


    Yes, Haas have a good resale value. Nice to know when you buy new and worry what happens if the bottom falls out. Sell the machine and recoup something.


    They hold value because if you don't push them to the max, done crash them up...they run and can be repaired when they don't run with factory help and parts. Try that with some other brands.


    I've bought several used machines at "not bad deals" about 14 years ago and they still run everyday holding size making lots of parts.

    I've bought several new as well...and while I am not a fan of being in hock...I look at it this way.
    I put down 20K on a machine, they ship, install, I run electric and air, they come in and commission machine, give me a brief overview and lesson. I have a warranty for a year...Haas's service is good, their warranty work is better. Seems a warranty call puts you at the top of the pack.
    So you put down 20k, that leaves you with 30k...a nice chunk to buy the needed tooling, vises, inspection equipment etc as jobs come up.
    Plus its a little failsafe in case times get lean...you can make payments.


    Once you spend the 50k on a used machine...the money ss gone. Need a tool to get a job out, too bad.


    For me, a new machine isn't about the payment, its is how much income the machine will bring in every month.

    Guess thats the difference between business and hobby.

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    Call your HFO and ask if they have any demo machines they are offloading. They are typically optioned out very well and they usually give good price breaks on them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse_92683 View Post
    I understand that getting a loan works great for some shops but I have seen to many machine shops near me go under for having too much overhead (I sold coolant for 5 years and had about 30 machine shops as customers). My reasoning is I want to quit my day job and machine full time (I would barely call it working, why was I not born a machinist!) but if it just stays as a hobby and my hobby makes me money.... I’m okay with that too
    Totally agree with your mindset on this. See what is the best you can do for 15k (there is always hidden cost that'll make 20k max) you could get a nice older Haas or Fadal. Then let that machine buy your next one. If you can't make that happen then you still have a machine that is debt free. More importantly you'll have a 30k cushion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIM View Post

    For me, a new machine isn't about the payment, its is how much income the machine will bring in every month.

    Guess thats the difference between business and hobby.
    You put it well here! If I had an established business and an established customer base it would make more sense to finance the machine. But being the only “customer” I ever had was Xometry (I did about 30 jobs for them this last year, which I loved as I could do it on my own time and because my shop is on land I own, I was making decent money as I had vertically no overhead).

    My shop has room for 1-2 more machines (both physically and electrically) and if this next machine goes well and by then I have a local customer base (also just moved to this state 2 years ago), I will be much more open to financing that next machine.

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    Reasons off the top of my head:

    options, price the fully optioned machine
    availability, used can ship today
    familiarity, identical to a machine already on your floor
    stupidity, people don't know what things are worth[buyer and seller]


    example:
    I can do my own AC work, figured I might find a used mini split for the garage
    nothing worth buy, all way overpriced. I cannot bother explaining that used has no warranty, no assurance it even works, and I don't care if you overpaid the installer and have 8k into it, I can buy it for a grand new...........

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    I actually called my local HFO here in SLC, UT and he is coming to my shop tomorrow to talk options with me.... we will see if they have something that titilates me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Reasons off the top of my head:
    availability, used can ship today
    familiarity, identical to a machine already on your floor
    I'd guess these two things go far in holding up what price you can get when selling. Faster and easier.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tryhard View Post
    Totally agree with your mindset on this. See what is the best you can do for 15k (there is always hidden cost that'll make 20k max) you could get a nice older Haas or Fadal. Then let that machine buy your next one. If you can't make that happen then you still have a machine that is debt free. More importantly you'll have a 30k cushion.

    This is another good way to look at it...down side is old machines have the old processor board and those have to be sent to a third party if fixing is needed. Otherwise its a 15k repair...the one new big downside for Haas.

    I know I argued the buy new side...but a good used that makes you money works very well too. Just the 50 is really 20-30 without shipping, tooling and a bit of reserve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIM View Post
    This is another good way to look at it...down side is old machines have the old processor board and those have to be sent to a third party if fixing is needed. Otherwise its a 15k repair...the one new big downside for Haas.

    I know I argued the buy new side...but a good used that makes you money works very well too. Just the 50 is really 20-30 without shipping, tooling and a bit of reserve.
    Nothing wrong with xometry, we do close to $14,000 a month in work for them. Gotta love that they always pay on time.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIM View Post
    This is another good way to look at it...down side is old machines have the old processor board and those have to be sent to a third party if fixing is needed. Otherwise its a 15k repair...the one new big downside for Haas.

    I know I argued the buy new side...but a good used that makes you money works very well too. Just the 50 is really 20-30 without shipping, tooling and a bit of reserve.

    My mach3 conversion landed my customer and paid for the Haas in short time. Older one, but got it very cheap. Very repairable and perfect for what I need. Total will be at around $15k once all tooled and cutting chips and would most certainly buy the new SS when the time comes.

    For someone starting off as a hobby shop I highly recommend this route. Lets you understand the machine really well. Although perhaps a recipe for disaster for a new guy starting a business on a shoestring budget. The down time of getting it tooled up and running can be a killer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Next gen control. It's the latest control from Haas. We have 12 Haas machines with this new control and everyone loves it.



    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    Do the people that love them ever used an older Haas control circa 2010-2015 or so? Just wondering because I still don't really care for the NGC over those years control. It is far better than any other control I have used (including smooth-x smooth-g, fanuc, milltronics, hurco, etc), but I don't think as good as the little bit older ones. Hit offset once for tool, again for work, and back and forth. WIPS was always F4 then 3 to output to mdi, now it is 2 for mdi output... little things really, but maybe I am just hard headed.

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