WIPS/Renishaw or 3D Taster?

I've seen a lot of opinions here regarding the WIPS setup from Haas (Toolsetter and Workfinder), but the opinions either seem to be "YES it's the best thing since sliced bread" or "NO it's a waste of money, buy a 3D Taster and you're better off". What seems to speak the loudest to me is that by buying the WIPS system you get something like $9000 in software options PLUS the system, all for a financeable $5500!! That's a screaming deal, and with WIPS optional on all the Haas mills I wanted to ask for logical opinions here. That said, $5500 buys a lot of tools.

These questions are all coming from me being an OEM of my own products, there will always be some misc work and I've been asked to do some simple 2D work from my laser shop (drill/tap/countersink), but for the most part my parts are and will be multi-part fixtures. I think there are a lot of guys in this scenario.

If you are consistently making parts from roughly 5 fixtures, with common toolsets, would you buy WIPS? Do you use it for in-process quality control? Do you use the broken tool check? Are there other features WIPS gives that you use all the time?

If you're doing Job Shop work, would you spend the time to do the simple program to run WIPS or would you use something like a Taster?

If these are dumb questions and the answer is "WIPS is heaven", just say so. I was surprised at the big contrast between lots of guys with hard YES and hard NO answers.

Edit: I have always used edgefinders and tool setters for the conversational CNC and manual machines I've run. I did spend a bit with an Applications Engineer working on a Haas VF2SS with WIPS and saw how easily he ran that system. I'll never run an edgefinder again now that I know the options on the market, but the 3D Tasters seem like a very good tool for ~$400.

I'd think the 3D Taster and a WIPS probe are in completely different ballparks. Both useful tools, but for different reasons.

One recent example: we were having a hard time finding a work offset shifting about .003" in any axis in-between powerups. This happened randomly about every 25 cycles or so. A part would get scrapped, offsets would be adjusted, and back to work.

The guy trying to find this problem with a 3D Taster said in 600 attempts, they saw 1 occurrence of the work shift. This was checked by hand over 2 days of babysitting the machine, and the shift had to be recorded manually by watching the amount the needle moved.

Not wanting to repeat that myself, I set up a probing macro that would run this test over and over automatically, while logging any shifts in the macro variables

Using the automated probe, not only were we seeing the shift happening more reliably, we were able to log the data and run unattended, overnight.

I think the WIPS system is well worth the money for job shop type work, setting offsets is so quick and easy for small quantities of parts that it saves a lot of time. Now that being said I didn't have to pay for the WIPS so I might feel differently in your shoes

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The WIPS probes are useful in virtually every situation; high production runs, low production batch work, prototyping, training, everything. It allows you to perform workpiece measurements, check broken tools, verify incoming material (castings etc). It can totally change your manufacturing process.
The only time I would even consider NOT buying one would be if money was an extreme issue, or if buying a used mill that didn't come with it already. Otherwise it mind as well be a required option. If I had to buy only one machine option, it would easily be the probe system.

The only conceptual advantage a 3d taster has is its mechanical nature being probably more reliable in the broad sense. Use of the electronic probes doesn't mean you can throw away your dial indicators, absolutely not! Although a 3d taster will gather dust in many situations if you have both it and the probes.

We got a Haas TM-2 in our prototyping shop eleven years ago with a 3D Taster, which was great. Then about eight years ago we were able to get the funding together for a WIPS. The taster sat as a back up ever since, never used. Except we just got a new much bigger machine (new machine day post coming up) so in the few days took to get things up and going and needing to get a couple of jobs done right away, the guys pulled out the Taster. But now it's back to the (new) WIPS. I'd second that point that they are always useful and probing for broken tools or probing each time a part is put in a fixture can be super helpful. Also the add-on WIPS on the TM-2 considerably added to the trade in value of the machine so that was a benefit too.

coyoinu said:

One recent example: we were having a hard time finding a work offset shifting about .003" in any axis in-between powerups. This happened randomly about every 25 cycles or so. A part would get scrapped, offsets would be adjusted, and back to work.

The guy trying to find this problem with a 3D Taster said in 600 attempts, they saw 1 occurrence of the work shift. This was checked by hand over 2 days of babysitting the machine, and the shift had to be recorded manually by watching the amount the needle moved.

Click to expand...

Is this from the workpiece or workholding moving, or is this from the machine losing its' Zero's? That would be a big question to me. Sometimes things physically move, but anything between the workpiece and the software where the parts don't physically move would be more concerning. That said, having the WIPS to identify every cycle would solve all that, and fixing an imperfection that shouldn't exist is a good value.

What does it take to include WIPS into a program to check parts before running, and to check dimensions after running? Sorry if this is a very simple question but for both myself and anyone reading this, I wasn't able to find much info without getting very specific. Can you easily add a portion to a program that checks where your zeros are (importantly, during multi-part fixturing), and can you easily add a measurement at the end that checks part offset (and maybe even modifies measurements for the following run?). I have seen an older post from 2014 I believe that mentioned there is a Renishaw program that uses the Probe for part checking that is hidden and not obvious but is very powerful for QC, is this still in use?

Thanks!
Marcus

The probe is called up with a macro subroutine call, just one line of code. It's very easy because the same codes are used during the setup process through MDI mode. In fact the controller will prompt you to ask where the code should be placed, whether in MDI for the setup process or if you'd like to place inside of your active program. So you don't even need to copy-paste things under many situations. (although you can certainly do that if it's easier)

Performing measurements then re-cutting takes a bit more work, but it really boils down to a logical program sequence based on the information you give it (you have to manually activate then position the probe, measure the feature, then perform an "if" statement to evaluate whether the program should carry on or loop back and cut it again).

I run a TM1 for a college machine shop. Engineering students need parts made, often only 1 or 2. I myself am a student, with no formal training to be a machinist. Just lots of hours in the shop practicing, asking questions, and researching online. The WIPS system on our machine makes things so much easier. While I am capable of indicating most features when I am on a manual machine, it takes me a while. The WIPS system makes everything incredibly easy and fast. Especially for parts where I have to flip the work multiple times. The tool setter is also really handy, though ultimately not much faster for measuring length than using an indicator tool setter.

I have both in my shop and well never buy a new machine with out probes. I do about 5 or 6 setups a week with WIPS on haas mills and about the same on fadals with a 3D tester ... WIPS is a huge time saver and there is not screwing around typing in numbers ...

I run most all my parts in fixtures and can keep all the tools loaded in the machine for 90% of my parts, I just have to swap fixtures call up Tool 24 ( were I keep the probe) and pull up the corner program for probing and tell it what I cant it to do and push the green button. I do the same for setting the fixture Z height. and then its just pull up the program for the part and its back to making parts. most of my fixture jobs I can swap out in under 5 min and have good parts the first run. No math, No thinking about + or - sighs . no thinking about do I add this or subtract this or divide this in half. Most days I have 3 or 4 machines running at a time and the ability to be stupid is a good thing.

With the 3D tester there is "WAY" more room to screw up.

I have both, and use them both for different things. The Haimer for indicating my two vises in parallel, for example.

Probing work offsets is nice and handy, especially bores and bosses. But I also use mine quite a bit for double sided parts or multi op parts where they don't get put in exactly the same. That way I get them close and hit the green button, let the probe do the work.

I use the tool breakage detection for overnight unattended production, and also for anything with fragile drills that will be followed by reamers or threadmills. Well worth it.

DethloffMfg said:

Is this from the workpiece or workholding moving, or is this from the machine losing its' Zero's?

Click to expand...

we were testing a bug in prototype software, the home switch was writing commanded instead of actual position.

DethloffMfg said:

What does it take to include WIPS into a program to check parts before running, and to check dimensions after running? ...
Can you easily add a portion to a program that checks where your zeros are (importantly, during multi-part fixturing), and can you easily add a measurement at the end that checks part offset (and maybe even modifies measurements for the following run?). I have seen an older post from 2014 I believe that mentioned there is a Renishaw program that uses the Probe for part checking that is hidden and not obvious but is very powerful for QC, is this still in use?

Click to expand...

the best way to get comfortable with the probe is to get comfortable with macro programming. You can easily make subprograms which use the probe to check G54 before the cuts, and then another macro to check vital dimensions after the cut.

I do job shop work. I wouldn't buy a Haas without the probing package. To add to other benefits mentioned, it can help combat problems with stacked tolerances by ditching the work stop and being able to probe both sides and work off the center of the part. The tool setter helps a lot too being able dial in the diameter of tools as well. I probe a lot of bores and bosses and the times saved there is a big plus. the only negative sometimes is probing a large boss with all kinds of clamps in the way can be less straight forward and you may be better off with a Haimer and calculator in that situation.