24” Featherweight in the “Thinkin About It" Stage. Suggestions Sought

dgfoster · Dec 3, 2020

One “hole” in my line of 8” to 48” straight edges seems to be the 24” size.

Many of you know I make 8” and 18” prism/parallel/precision level castings. And I make a lightweight 36” camel back broad-soled camelback straight edge. These have been quite popular, but I have noticed a number of requests for 24” straight edges. (I also make a 48” camelback and a unique-to-the-industry 30” box square)

I am considering making a 24” Featherweight to fill out the line. But I am wondering which would be more useful—-a camelback design or a longer prism? To my mind the prism would have more functionality as I would make it along the lines of the 18, just longer and maybe slightly wider. The 18 has proved quite lightweight and rigid. But I would also guess some folks might prefer a more traditional camelback design but with the broader base characteristic of my 36. (I cannot see advantage to a camelback under 24” as opposed to a prism.) I would expect the 24 would not have a thick sole that could double as a prism, but would listen to arguments in favor of a thick sole.

The 18” prism weighs 12 pounds as cast and machines to little over 10 typically. I would guess the 24 would come in around16 to 18 as cast. The 24” camelback with a thin sole would be about 20 as cast and with a 1” thick sole would make it come in about30 pounds.

The eight

The 18

The 36

Anyway, here is a chance to weigh in (so to speak) on the design of the next Featherweight. The plan is to cast it and heat treating it to the high standard you’ve come to expect from my castings.

Denis

lucky7 · Dec 3, 2020

No preference prism vs camel back for 24”, but after a few years of using Richard’s 24” HKA, I wish it was 26” long. Would then be perfect for B-port knees. So easy to get a false rub with 24”. Did get one of smt’s 30” camelbacks and like it, but I find Richard’s 24” camelback easier to feel hinging with if less than 24” being rubbed. IMHO, all comes down to balance and feel. Which is probably personal choice.

Would not suggest a 24”+ along the lines of your longer Featherweights with a thin sole. I think at 24”ish, it’s light enough you want the tool to do both flats and dovetails.

How’s that 54” Featherweight coming? ;-)

(Always the poop disturber here!)

Best,
Stan.

dgfoster · Dec 3, 2020

Well, 7, those are good points. It would not be difficult to make it 2” longer and would be well worth it if it added utility.

Denis

thermite · Dec 3, 2020

dgfoster said:
Well, 7, those are good points. It would not be difficult to make it 2” longer and would be well worth it if it added utility.

Denis

I'd 'vote' to do exactly as "7" suggests. Go for 26".

But "also" design it so it is MEANT to be able to have one-inch at each end milled OFF.

Same casting, but now one has a "built in" choice of 24" OR 26" with minimal 'extra' fuss.

I'd also say DO provide for the dual-use dovetail sole as with its larger cousins.

That, too, would not be hard to mill OFF. But only if/as/when a "frequent" user found it a nuisance for their purpose.

I suggest that few actual buyers would object?

Unless they already had so many SE's as to constitute a sort of surplus of choices?

marka12161 · Dec 3, 2020

Since it's all about me, all the time...

On my list of projects is scraping the ways on the saddle for the cross slide of my Monarch 16CY. Pics are below. Note that the dovetailed ways are 1 15/16" wide (see dividers) and a straight edge wider than that won't fit. The picture shows the end of the cross slide dovetail way with the saddle upside down. The bottom line is i will need a straight edge about 26" long by approx 2 inches wide with a dovetail surface.

dgfoster · Dec 3, 2020

marka12161 said:
Since it's all about me, all the time...

On my list of projects is scraping the ways on the saddle for the cross slide of my Monarch 16CY. Pics are below. Note that the dovetailed ways are 1 15/16" wide (see dividers) and a straight edge wider than that won't fit. The picture shows the end of the cross slide dovetail way with the saddle upside down. The bottom line is i will need a straight edge about 26" long by approx 2 inches wide with a dovetail surface.

View attachment 306524
View attachment 306523
View attachment 306522

Well, then, you will simply need to buy the "maybe" 26 that is in its first phase of conception. Because, if it had proportions similar to the 18, by the time the sole and 45 faces are milled in a standard fashion, the sole will be only 3/8' to 1/2" greater than 2". It would not be hard at all, nor truly problematic to custom mill it a bit narrower on the back surface and/or perhaps a bit thinner (there is plenty of extra iron as is) and you could have the prism/Straight edge,/ parallel you need! ;-) I actually think you could do this and be very happy with the result.

I am leaning toward the 26" prism design similar to the 18 at this time, but am hoping for more input before beginning to make a pattern.

Denis

Halcohead · Dec 4, 2020

I (likely) won't be in the market for this SE since I have a very nice 24" challenge (unless the version you do has a dovetail, but even then not for a while), but one design element of it I've really appreciated is it has a ~6-8" long parallel surface on the top of the camelback. This allows several nice things:

- When using the SE to indicate the straightness of travel on a surface grinder or planer, you can easily flip the straightedge on its back to check the machine without any shimming or other trouble.
- You can do reversal checks with the straightedge by using it both rightside up and upside down (straddling across gage blocks) to check a surface plate with an indicator in a "union jack" pattern (think Rahn Planekator, but better). Because you're checking with reversal, you can easily detect any errors in straightness associated with the straightedge itself.
- Easy to temporarily mount a level to the straightedge for improvising a long-frame level.

I know I've mentioned this feature before, but really I don't understand why every camelback straightedge doesn't have this short parallel on their back. It adds very little weight, and is short enough to be easy to scrape parallel to the main face. As a scraping aid it isn't very important, but when using the straightedge for general metrology and indicating that short parallel on the back is tremendously useful.

On reversal, note that by using this parallel to allow quickly flipping the straightedge, you can theoretically generate an arbitrarily straight surface with only 2 straightedges and an indicator, rather than three. Or if you want to check flatness of your surface plate, scrape the straightedge to the surface plate, then flip the straightedge on its back and indicate it. Whatever error the plate has will be read doubled by the indicator, making this a very sensitive test.

Okay I'm done selling this feature. Either way I'm looking forward to what you come up with!

marka12161 · Dec 4, 2020

dgfoster said:
Well, then, you will simply need to buy the "maybe" 26 that is in its first phase of conception. Because, if it had proportions similar to the 18, by the time the sole and 45 faces are milled in a standard fashion, the sole will be only 3/8' to 1/2" greater than 2". It would not be hard at all, nor truly problematic to custom mill it a bit narrower on the back surface and/or perhaps a bit thinner (there is plenty of extra iron as is) and you could have the prism/Straight edge,/ parallel you need! ;-) I actually think you could do this and be very happy with the result.

I am leaning toward the 26" prism design similar to the 18 at this time, but am hoping for more input before beginning to make a pattern.

Denis

Denis,

Sounds like it'll likely work for me. For some reason that i can't quite put my finger on, i like the idea of a prism as well as long as it doesn't move. I'm looking forward to the final configuration.

M

dgfoster · Dec 4, 2020

Halcohead said:
I (likely) won't be in the market for this SE since I have a very nice 24" challenge (unless the version you do has a dovetail, but even then not for a while), but one design element of it I've really appreciated is it has a ~6-8" long parallel surface on the top of the camelback. This allows several nice things:

- When using the SE to indicate the straightness of travel on a surface grinder or planer, you can easily flip the straightedge on its back to check the machine without any shimming or other trouble.
- You can do reversal checks with the straightedge by using it both rightside up and upside down (straddling across gage blocks) to check a surface plate with an indicator in a "union jack" pattern (think Rahn Planekator, but better). Because you're checking with reversal, you can easily detect any errors in straightness associated with the straightedge itself.
- Easy to temporarily mount a level to the straightedge for improvising a long-frame level.

I know I've mentioned this feature before, but really I don't understand why every camelback straightedge doesn't have this short parallel on their back. It adds very little weight, and is short enough to be easy to scrape parallel to the main face. As a scraping aid it isn't very important, but when using the straightedge for general metrology and indicating that short parallel on the back is tremendously useful.

On reversal, note that by using this parallel to allow quickly flipping the straightedge, you can theoretically generate an arbitrarily straight surface with only 2 straightedges and an indicator, rather than three. Or if you want to check flatness of your surface plate, scrape the straightedge to the surface plate, then flip the straightedge on its back and indicate it. Whatever error the plate has will be read doubled by the indicator, making this a very sensitive test.

Okay I'm done selling this feature. Either way I'm looking forward to what you come up with!

Halcohead, I appreciate your comments on the potential utility of a flat on the bow of a camelback. Thank you. I actually thought about putting one on the 36 I make but eventually chose not to as I thought (perhaps mistakenly) that, due to the height of the 36, it would be too “tippy” if balance sole-up on such a flat.

But the 18 pictured above (the. Eight too) is a convenient parallel as well as straight edge for its entire length. And, if I simply lengthen that design to 26,” then it too would provide a convenient and robust parallel, as well as level and prism of that length. Here a link with more pics of the 18 and its features:Denis Foster 18" Straight Edge / Prism

Denis

thermite · Dec 4, 2020

dgfoster said:
But the 18 pictured above (the. Eight too) is a convenient parallel as well as straight edge for its entire length. And, if I simply lengthen that design to 26,” then it too would provide a convenient and robust parallel, as well as level and prism of that length.

Wellll... Conventional "Camels" can find their own humps. No gain, here, at under three feet / or a meter...

So I like that plan! A LOT!

But as it's going to be a new pattern, regardless?

How about you slightly increase the vertical rise (for stiffness), and then also..

..make the narrower "top" rail so it accommodates a NARROWER dovetail, too - down one side - than the "primary" sole, too?

Now... in one go, yah have a "dual sole" FOUR-way (or BETTER!) useful multi-function SE / level / parallel in yer kit that CAN get into narrower spaces to do cross or compounds!

A compound is lighter than the overlong SE? Rub the compound casting over a fixed SE instead of the reverse? IOW greater versatility = fewer tools needing to be trekked about to the work?

I can find budget to add such an all-round USEFUL critter to my collection of Foster Featherweight .... "HEIRLOOMS to-be".

Count me IN for a prepaid order!

dgfoster · Dec 4, 2020

thermite said:
Wellll... Conventional "Camels" can find their own humps. No gain, here, at under three feet / or a meter...

So I like that plan! A LOT!

But as it's going to be a new pattern, regardless?

How about you slightly increase the vertical rise (for stiffness), and then also..

..make the narrower "top" rail so it accommodates a NARROWER dovetail, too - down one side - than the "primary" sole, too?

Now... in one go, yah have a "dual sole" FOUR-way (or BETTER!) useful multi-function SE / level / parallel in yer kit that CAN get into narrower spaces to do cross or compounds!

A compound is lighter than the overlong SE? Rub the compound casting over a fixed SE instead of the reverse? IOW greater versatility = fewer tools needing to be trekked about to the work?

I can find budget to add such an all-round USEFUL critter to my collection of Foster Featherweight .... "HEIRLOOMS to-be".

Count me IN for a prepaid order!

Wow, Bill. You will be first in line. That is quite a vote of confidence. Reminds me of the TV adds of my youth when TV was in its youth; "Be the first one on your block to have [fill in the blank]"

To your point about the smaller dove, you could mill the top rail back surface to provide a small prism on the 18. When I machine the top rail it is parallel within a thou of the sole and ready for scraping.

Denis

ripperj · Dec 4, 2020

If you end up going the camelback route, I’ll buy one to round out my collection.
Don’t let that sway the decision if most want the prism type, it’s not like I really need it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

marka12161 · Dec 4, 2020

dgfoster said:
Wow, Bill. You will be first in line. That is quite a vote of confidence. Reminds me of the TV adds of my youth when TV was in its youth; "Be the first one on your block to have [fill in the blank]"

To your point about the smaller dove, you could mill the top rail back surface to provide a small prism on the 18. When I machine the top rail it is parallel within a thou of the sole and ready for scraping.

View attachment 306571

Denis

I'm in love with Bill's recommendation for a small dovetail on the top of the yet to be designed 26" prism. If wide enough it would may serve my need for the Monarch saddle cross slide and would still retain a nice wider base. Wide/Narrow dovetail straight edge and parallel all in one tool. Assuming price would be appropriately scaled up from the 18" version i'd place an order as well. I'd likely buy an 8" version ahead of it as i need to develop scraping skills.

Mark

thermite · Dec 4, 2020

dgfoster said:
Wow, Bill. You will be first in line. That is quite a vote of confidence.

Welll... no real risk on MY part! Not our first rodeo, and you have been EARNING that confidence at every go with truly superb product!

"as before.." I'm ACTUALLY happier to be a prepaid "early-adopter" but ... to await your second or even later "run" of production .. so as to take advantage of 'lessons learned'.

Lazy, Iyam. Or maybe just old and experienced at the pragmatic side of greedy?

To your point about the smaller dove, you could mill the top rail back surface to provide a small prism on the 18. When I machine the top rail it is parallel within a thou of the sole and ready for scraping.

View attachment 306571

Denis

Mine was only a few feet away, "warm" era of the long, long-baseline heat-cycling I've been doing.

So I just went, opened the box lid, and grokked it "in 3D".

I'd guess as little as a 1/2" to 3/4" extra vertical rise, the attached bits are further apart, and one gets slightly greater freedom of rotation to align whichever plane is being put to work if/as/when it has to be used down in a confined area?

Should be MORE than stiff enuf, and still light "ENOUGH" to not NEED a catenary/"camelback" curve to keep the weight down, and rigidity UP?

Yes. I DO own Victorinox, Leathermans, Gerbers, and SOG tools, too.
Misplaced my last "Eifel-geared Plier Wrench" ages ago, though!

gbent · Dec 5, 2020

I have several parallel straight edges. Smaller ones work well as a base for a level where the straight edge must be blocked up to clear an obstruction. Even if its not a full parallel straight edge, being able to turn the straight edge over allows one to check the straight edge and the surface plate that was used to scrape it.

On camelback straight edges, I do appreciate the features such as some Brown & Sharpe and Busch that allow bolting wooden handles.

dgfoster · Dec 5, 2020

I am posting this note to advise folks that I am suspending sales of my Featherweight straight edges for a few weeks. This is for two reasons.

First I have an order for a pallet of straight edges that are going to another country. I have nearly got the needed SE’s accumulated to fill the order, but sales here and on eBay have just been (love it, of course) preventing getting it quite done. So, I will be concentrating my casting on getting that order out the door.

Second, this new pattern design, fabrication and consequent flask-making will preoccupy shop time. And I want to be able to concentrate on it unhurried. I am really stoked on making the new pattern, but there is more to getting “perfect” casting ready for use than simply dreaming up a pattern and casting it with automatic success first try. Invariably, new patterns present new and unexpected challenges. With already three 24/26” straight edges spoken for, I don’t want to feel pressure from the large order, pattern making, eBay sales, and sales here. I will be working diligently to get back on track just as soon as I can.

I do think it is reasonable that in a month to 6 weeks the dust will have settled and I can go back to supplying folks with straight edges. I thank you for your understanding. My little one-person operation is not geared toward production. I make em one SE at a time and am having a great time doing so. Thank you all!!!

Denis

marka12161 · Dec 5, 2020

dgfoster said:
I am posting this note to advise folks that I am suspending sales of my Featherweight straight edges for a few weeks. This is for two reasons.

First I have an order for a pallet of straight edges that are going to another country. I have nearly got the needed SE’s accumulated to fill the order, but sales here and on eBay have just been (love it, of course) preventing getting it quite done. So, I will be concentrating my casting on getting that order out the door.

Second, this new pattern design, fabrication and consequent flask-making will preoccupy shop time. And I want to be able to concentrate on it unhurried. I am really stoked on making the new pattern, but there is more to getting “perfect” casting ready for use than simply dreaming up a pattern and casting it with automatic success first try. Invariably, new patterns present new and unexpected challenges. With already three 24/26” straight edges spoken for, I don’t want to feel pressure from the large order, pattern making, eBay sales, and sales here. I will be working diligently to get back on track just as soon as I can.

I do think it is reasonable that in a month to 6 weeks the dust will have settled and I can go back to supplying folks with straight edges. I thank you for your understanding. My little one-person operation is not geared toward production. I make em one SE at a time and am having a great time doing so. Thank you all!!!

Denis

Denis, Please don't feel any time pressure on my account. The pandemic is messing everything up. I was to all set to host one of Richard King's scraping classes last May but most of the students signed up were from Canada and when they shut down the border, it became clear we had to cancel. Hopefully we'll be able to do a class later next year.

I've been renovating an old house since the summer and it'll keep me busy all winter so I wouldn't be able to do anything on a SE even if i had one. My plan for the Monarch is to have the bed ground but i haven't even had time to take remove the QCGB and headstock to send it out to the grind shop.

All in due time.
Mark

dgfoster · Dec 5, 2020

marka12161 said:
Denis, Please don't feel any time pressure on my account. The pandemic is messing everything up. I was to all set to host one of Richard King's scraping classes last May but most of the students signed up were from Canada and when they shut down the border, it became clear we had to cancel. Hopefully we'll be able to do a class later next year.

I've been renovating an old house since the summer and it'll keep me busy all winter so I wouldn't be able to do anything on a SE even if i had one. My plan for the Monarch is to have the bed ground but i haven't even had time to take remove the QCGB and headstock to send it out to the grind shop.

All in due time.
Mark

No apologies from anyone. I am so happy that I will get a chance to cast for folks and I am delighted that there is interest. I am just trying to not frustrate people or have them think I am a slacker if I can not get a straight edge to them promptly. Normally, I try to ship within one day of an order being placed. I want to keep this endeavor in the "fun" category.

Denis

marka12161 · Dec 6, 2020

dgfoster said:
No apologies from anyone. I am so happy that I will get a chance to cast for folks and I am delighted that there is interest. I am just trying to not frustrate people or have them think I am a slacker if I can not get a straight edge to them promptly. Normally, I try to ship within one day of an order being placed. I want to keep this endeavor in the "fun" category.

Denis

Machining is mostly a hobby for me. Time pressure takes the fun out of everything. Like i said, no hurry on my end. Let me know when ready and we can trade particulars.

M

dgfoster · Dec 7, 2020

Thanks to all those folks kind enough to provide input and suggestions.

Work on the pattern has begun. I decided to make a 26” prism/straight edge/parallel/level. It will look like the 18’s big brother but will have 3 struts instead of 2. The overall length of the pattern is 26.75 inches. BUT, the final casting should be just over 26 inches as the wood pattern will first be cast in aluminum to make durable working pattern. So I have to allow for shrinkage in the wood to aluminum transition and the again for the aluminum pattern to CI casting transition.

Today I cut out pieces of Baltic birch plywood to make the two faces and the struts that go between the faces. I’m usually anxious to start gluing pies together, but I have learned that a major portion of pattern making is devoted to finishing operations as a smooth slick surface is needed for good sand release. So, I resisted the urge starting putting pieces together and instead mocked it up, marked out where glue joints will land and am shellacking and lacquering with areas to be glued masked off. Once the paint is dry, I’ll trim the pieces to size and start gluing the backbone of the pattern.

Denis

24” Featherweight in the “Thinkin About It" Stage. Suggestions Sought

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