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  1. #21
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    I've been using diamond stones to sharpen the scraper by hand.

    I'm bluing the plane on a flat granite tile and I'm going back and forth and side to side. The sole is clearly high in the middle which can be seen by putting a straight edge to it, but I can take a dial indicator to it later if you want. I don't have any feeler gauges yet.

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    What is a granite tile? If your talking about some hardware store bathroom tile, then we may as well stop talking now. On the question about this being a hoax, I considered that when I read the title of the thread The art of Scraping placed in general forum, seems a bit odd when bnem is scraping a plane and used a term seen in the scraping forums. But he did say he has read other forums and may have picked up on the term. Why he didn't put this in Woodworking forum also makes one wonder why wasn't it titled How do you scrape the bottom of a plane? I know there are a few lurkers who have been embarrassed off the forum who i wouldn't put it past them to make up a new name and play games. But I am going to play along a bit longer as I have the flu and am bored to death sitting inside the house. Rich

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    Seems like you guys are being a little over critical. I put this in the General forum because this is the last place I saw a thread about hand scraping. I made the title "The art of hand scraping" because I've tried what I've read and haven't had any success.

    I agree a granite tile isn't the flattest thing in the world, but again you're being too critical. This is a hand plane. I'm trying to achieve "flatness" but not absolute flatness. Hand scraping is just flattening something using a "flat" surface as a reference. In my case I don't need it to be super flat, just flat enough so I think a granite tile is sufficient. When I'm bluing I'm not bearing down on the plane so as to bend the sole or the granite tile.

    You want me to put this in a woodworking forum? You guys have already said hand scraping is specialized knowledge. What could I possibly gain from putting this there? They've said to use the sandpaper method which I've tried and had no success. Most of the people I see trying to flatten a hand sole are using some older model Bailey which is likely to have a relatively flat sole to begin with. Hell, they start with 80+ grit sandpaper and are done within about 3 minutes. I used 60 grit sandpaper, sanded for hours and the cup in the middle was still very large.

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    Stephen the moderator in that Woodworkrs forum is an excellent scraper and has a plane collection i believe. I was just answering trboatworks post when I mentioned the hoax. If you scrape you need to know how flat your master surface plate is and if your using a tile used on the floor or wall it wasn't made to be precision, it was made to be smooth and pretty. Possibly one of the others knows how flat they are, but if your trying to get something flat to with-in .001" or better then not knowing how flat your surface plate tile seems a bit Grubered.
    I will email you the Connelly book info on how to sharpen your HSS blade in an hour or so. Rich

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    Quote Originally Posted by bnem View Post
    Seems like you guys are being a little over critical. I put this in the General forum because this is the last place I saw a thread about hand scraping. I made the title "The art of hand scraping" because I've tried what I've read and haven't had any success.

    I agree a granite tile isn't the flattest thing in the world, but again you're being too critical. This is a hand plane. I'm trying to achieve "flatness" but not absolute flatness. Hand scraping is just flattening something using a "flat" surface as a reference. In my case I don't need it to be super flat, just flat enough so I think a granite tile is sufficient. When I'm bluing I'm not bearing down on the plane so as to bend the sole or the granite tile.

    You want me to put this in a woodworking forum? You guys have already said hand scraping is specialized knowledge. What could I possibly gain from putting this there? They've said to use the sandpaper method which I've tried and had no success. Most of the people I see trying to flatten a hand sole are using some older model Bailey which is likely to have a relatively flat sole to begin with. Hell, they start with 80+ grit sandpaper and are done within about 3 minutes. I used 60 grit sandpaper, sanded for hours and the cup in the middle was still very large.
    first off, please stop taking everything said here as if its from one voice. It's forum so its not like everyone who responds agrees, thinks the same or knows the same.

    makes no sense tp put this in a woodworking forum imo, the subject at hand is metal working - you're asking about scraping metal

    As for the rest, being too critical, hogwash. ""flatness" but not absolute flatness" WTF is absolute flatness? You asked how something is done and you are getting answers from people who know. People who know, think in terms of tolerances. To a farmer a field is flat - is that flat enough? why not - being to critical? see what I'm getting at? You have no idea how flat your tile is relative to how flat you want your plane to be and because flatness cost money no one would expect a tile to be flat to any close tolerance

    That would be a starting point - how flat do you want your plane to be?

    1) imo, human touch is extremely sensitive. For example, most can tell which of two close gauge blocks is thicker - that's a human caliper that can sense a tenth or two

    2) Hand planing for straight, square and to dimension is difficult to do and learn - and your feedback is from the plane sole.

    3) given 1&2, the job (imo) becomes so much easier if the plane sole, and your feedback is flat to a high degree - say to at least 1 thou.

    4) short of scraping or machine tools, you're going to have a heck of a time getting there.....which is why everyone figured you asked about scraping

    Getting something flat to a small tolerance is just not trivial. That's I think what you should be frustrated with and that you're not equipped for it, not that people here were trying to help you understand and get there

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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    LOL i have a number 6 too im using to build the harwood conservatory. IMHO its a common off the shelf tool, use it to make something, don't just bling it up. Most good planes are plenty flat enough to make some really nice items as is from the factory :-) Worrying about a few tenths of bow on somthing as flexable as a plane being pushed across a bit of wood takeing at least a multiple thou shaving has so many error variables a few tenths on the base of the plane is not going to cause you errors in your actual work. If you want to do anything, practice planeing flat once you buy a working plane to start with, not the buggered up mess you have now!
    Two things:
    First, You might be right about new planes from the factory being flat enough for genreal use. I suspect that would be true if the planes are from high-end makers but I also , based on my experience, know that is not necessarily true for run-of-the-mill planes. In my case some of the planes I have are 50 to 75 uyears old and have seen a lot of use and some abuse. And even two relatively new Stanley bench plane were far from flat being several thousandths out of flat. I had used them that way for many years and I thought they were working pretty well. Then a few years ago I learned how to scrape. Since the PPI for a hand plane and general tolerances are a lot looser (in my shop) than those for a machine tool, using a good sharp hand scraper it was posssible to plow off the high spots and get the soles flat within a few tenths in less than an hour each or hour and a half each. I am here to tell you the difference in performance was obvious.

    Second, the OP asked for some help and I have no reason to think he is unreasonable in his request or that he is, as someone else suggested, "playing" us. There is a long tradition in woodworking that suggests a flat sole on a plane improves the results obtained with a plane. (And yes I am aware that cerrtain Japanese planes have a intentionally non-flat sole so let's not get into that debate)

    I would agree that even a poorly tuned plane can work fairly well if the iron is sharp and the chip breaker fitted and it is in the hands of an experienced user. But, is it possible that the naysayers don't know what they are missing? Would offend anyoone if we just try to answer the OP's question?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    first off, please stop taking everything said here as if its from one voice. It's forum so its not like everyone who responds agrees, thinks the same or knows the same.

    makes no sense tp put this in a woodworking forum imo, the subject at hand is metal working - you're asking about scraping metal

    As for the rest, being too critical, hogwash. ""flatness" but not absolute flatness" WTF is absolute flatness? You asked how something is done and you are getting answers from people who know. People who know, think in terms of tolerances. To a farmer a field is flat - is that flat enough? why not - being to critical? see what I'm getting at? You have no idea how flat your tile is relative to how flat you want your plane to be and because flatness cost money no one would expect a tile to be flat to any close tolerance

    That would be a starting point - how flat do you want your plane to be?

    1) imo, human touch is extremely sensitive. For example, most can tell which of two close gauge blocks is thicker - that's a human caliper that can sense a tenth or two

    2) Hand planing for straight, square and to dimension is difficult to do and learn - and your feedback is from the plane sole.

    3) given 1&2, the job (imo) becomes so much easier if the plane sole, and your feedback is flat to a high degree - say to at least 1 thou.

    4) short of scraping or machine tools, you're going to have a heck of a time getting there.....which is why everyone figured you asked about scraping

    Getting something flat to a small tolerance is just not trivial. That's I think what you should be frustrated with and that you're not equipped for it, not that people here were trying to help you understand and get there
    Sorry, all I'm trying to say is I don't need it to be as flat as your used to. Surface plates come in all different grades do they not? My granite tile is just a low low grade surface plate - it will do for my purpose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bnem View Post
    Sorry, all I'm trying to say is I don't need it to be as flat as your used to. Surface plates come in all different grades do they not? My granite tile is just a low low grade surface plate - it will do for my purpose.
    You are most likely correct in thiniking that if you take the plane as it is and flatten it to conform to a tile it will be a lot better than it was to begin with. One simple test of general flatness is to just reflect off the surface of the tile a pretty straight window frame and see how straight it is in the reflection. My granit counter top show very straight reflections. Not Grade B surface plate flatness probably, but certtainly flat enough for a wood plane. Then take your plane sole and wet it and hold it up and see if the reflection is straight or, more likely, if it looks like something at the "fun house." If it is straight by the reflection test, it is probably straight enough for any reasonable woodworking use. But, I would be willing to bet it will show plently of distortion.

    Someone did point out earlier the importance of scraping and testing with the plane iron retracted but tensioned as if the plane were in use.

    Denis

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    Quote Originally Posted by bnem View Post
    Sorry, all I'm trying to say is I don't need it to be as flat as your used to. Surface plates come in all different grades do they not? My granite tile is just a low low grade surface plate - it will do for my purpose.
    Plates do come in different tolerances, and scrapers pay attention to that, but we're talkint a difference of tenths over feet.

    The first question, is how flat do you think it needs to be? Its believable (to me) that a tile isn't as flat as the sole might be from the manufacturer.

    There is also a problem in that there needs to be some compatibility between how flat the reference is, how thick the blue you apply to it is and the depth of cut you achieve from scraping. Otherwise, you'll never finish - ie everytime you spot you'll get a different area showing as high or low.

    But lets say it was flat enough and you spotted in close to the same place so get some consistency.....I think your problem is what I first posted, you're not getting a fine enough edge on them. On carbide scrapers I use a 12 micron diamond paste on a cast iron spinning lap for example comes out like a mirror....but I can also put a decent edge on carbon steel scrapers with stones (hold the scraper vertically and pull toward you across the stone) what's the Rennsteig scraper blade made off?

    keep in mind that because the edge has to be so fine (because DOC is so small) the will require frequent resharpening

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    You could visually tell by staring down the sole when I started that it wasn't straight. Putting a straight edge across the sole and holding it up to the light makes it very obvious as well. I'll try some more tonight and see how it goes. That Rennsteig doesn't look like it's going to cut it.

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    If you could see light under the straight edge the reflection test will confirm what I said above.

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    I was going to scan and email this to bnem (why don't you sign off with your real name..? But thought I would share them with everyone. This is from the book Machine Tool Reconditioning edited by Edward Connelly. If your scraper isn't holding a sharp edge for more then say one round of scraping the plane I would heat it up to a cherry red and quench it in oil. a coffee can size of motor oil and still the pot with it until it cools off. Then grind the neg 5 deg on both sides so the bade has 2 cutting surfaces on a white wheel being sure not to get it to hot, dip the blade in water every few seconds.
    On the lapping stone I showed in the other post. Put that in a vise, brown side up and squirt some oil on the stone, then holt the scraper at 90 degree's straight up, one hand on top of the handle and one hand down near the stone and tilt the scraper a small 5 degs at the top and move the bottom of the scraper back and forth several times so when you look at the blade tip you do not see and grinding marks. Then hone the other side of the tip so it is smooth as the first side. Then lay it on the side as shown in pic. 5.5. If your only going to scrape 1 plane then no need to buy a carbide blade and lapper.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20141116_102808.jpg   20141116_102831.jpg   20141116_102851.jpg   20141116_102903.jpg  
    Last edited by Richard King; 11-16-2014 at 08:27 PM.

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    Here are some more pictures of the book. You should buy one.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20141116_102924.jpg   20141116_102935.jpg   20141116_102952.jpg   20141116_103000.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    they don't come scraped, but they don't come that flat either. I maintain if they're not flat, it makes developing the feel of squaring and straightening the work with a hand plane that much tougher to come by - your feedback loop is all loopy

    you're taking a risk grinding them, while they are obviously ground from the factory, I've heard tales of the heat from grinding causing problems of warping etc. Maybe BS, but no chance of it with scraping

    Scraping also seems to make them glide better.....but that may just be like new running shoes making you run faster
    Use grinding coolant to keep the heat down, flood, mist, etc.

    I tried scraping my Dunlap hand plane earlier, the sole was mildly hardened. I gave up on the second pass. The OP NEEDS carbide scraper blades if he wants to scrape a plane sole.
    I'll regrind it when my SG gets wired.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spyderedge View Post
    Use grinding coolant to keep the heat down, flood, mist, etc.
    i don't grind without coolant. Coolant stops heat build up (overall temp of part rising) but doesn't do much to change the temperature where bit of grit meets bit of cast iron - that's a function of cutting speed primarily. As I said, I cannot rationalize the notion of grinding causing planes warping as they are ground at the plant...I only point out I've read of it. If it is true, its likely going to be from point temperatures not overall heat build up

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    I'm with McGyver on this. I surface ground a friend's plane at his request using generous mist. Came out nice and flat. It was not as flat as scraped but blued up pretty well and was certainly a ton flatter than what he had before we started---a new plane by the way. I am suspicious that new planes (again the run of the mill type) are not ground with the plane iron in place and it may be the primary goal of the grinding may be to look good. The plane I ground worked a ton better after grinding than it did before too. I tried it with his sharp iron pre and post grind just to see if there was a difference. It would cut both ways. But it cut a nice smooth and consistent shaving after the grind. It was much more grabby and inconsistent prior to grind.

    I also SG'd my 9 1/2 stanley block plane with excellent results.

    Denis

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    The problem that I see with a granite tile is not that its not "flat enough for your purposes" but more that it might give you a different result every time you print the part. That said its probably fine for determining the highest spots and carving those off. However as you refine that to get the surface to print all over for good bearing then I think it will become somewhat futile.

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    JMO and not trying to desparage anyone, but going form 60 grit sandpaper to hand scraping seems like quite a jump to me. I'd suggest taking smaller steps and using some finer paper, even with 80 grit IMO a few mins distraction will ruin an hour or more's work.

    Not quite sure the technique youre using but personally, I'd do a mechanic's loose spinoff on lapping using a ~3' square'ish piece of glass and wet/dry paper starting at ~120 grit and working your way up to at least 600 grit. Keep the paper wet and rinse it and the glass off regularly, and work the plane in a figure-8 pattern WITHOUT any vertical pressure applied to the plane. Literally, let the weight of the plane do all the work. DO NOT use a tile/glass like a sanding block, you need to apply the plane to the paper NOT the paper to the plane. I've gotten within a few thou across iron auto heads given an hour or so of work, I'd imagine on a small'ish hand plane you could do significantly better.

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    Get a reasonably flat reference- jointer table, etc. Or a cheap small import surface plate. Whatever- this is a wood plane.
    Mark out your sole with the bluing.
    Flip the thing over and hold it in a vise.
    If it is way out, grab an nice 12" bastard file and hold it on edge with your thumbs in the middle-exactly like a woodworking hand scraper. Bend it a little and scrape the sole. yes, there will be little grooves from the teeth of the file.
    Get the thing halfway flat doing this and then start using a file with the end ground off to 90 degrees. grind off the teeth on one side of the end, and polish. Cut a neg. five degree land on the last 1/32" of the ground off end. Do this by holding the file like an icepick, right at the end, and pull it across a diamond stone . Rock it a bit to make a long radius on the edge. Then use it like a woodworking chisel to cut the sole. you may end up with some grooves from the bastard file left in the sole. big deal, all my old baileys have big long machined in grooves anyway. Just leave the stone out to hand and every time you need to sharpen it just give it a stroke or two. If it is cutting correctly there will be coffee grind like pieces of cast iron. don't let it skid on the work- make it bite, by working on sharpness and angle to the work..

    Something to watch for - never check for flat except on the reference, with the blade tensioned- if you try it in the vise while holding the plane, it will not be true- the vise will bend the plane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CWB View Post
    JMO and not trying to desparage anyone, but going form 60 grit sandpaper to hand scraping seems like quite a jump to me. I'd suggest taking smaller steps and using some finer paper, even with 80 grit IMO a few mins distraction will ruin an hour or more's work.

    Not quite sure the technique youre using but personally, I'd do a mechanic's loose spinoff on lapping using a ~3' square'ish piece of glass and wet/dry paper starting at ~120 grit and working your way up to at least 600 grit. Keep the paper wet and rinse it and the glass off regularly, and work the plane in a figure-8 pattern WITHOUT any vertical pressure applied to the plane. Literally, let the weight of the plane do all the work. DO NOT use a tile/glass like a sanding block, you need to apply the plane to the paper NOT the paper to the plane. I've gotten within a few thou across iron auto heads given an hour or so of work, I'd imagine on a small'ish hand plane you could do significantly better.
    I basically did that already. Started with 120 grit and went through paper like crazy and made almost no progress. Went to 80 and had the same thing. Then switched to diablo 60 grit to try to at least get it flat and then I could work my way back up.


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