assessing wear of Van Norman 22L
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  1. #1
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    Default assessing wear of Van Norman 22L

    Hi,

    I'm working on this Van Norman 22LU universal mill. It is a ~1944
    machine.

    I've taken off the table and top saddle so far, leaving the lower
    saddle and knee. The upper and lower saddle mating surfaces are
    nearly pristine, showing almost no wear and original scraping. Interestingly
    there were two copper shims in between these parts however.

    The spindle runout in the 50-taper spindle shows .0002" runout on the
    taper, and .0005" on the spindle face.

    The cutterhead face and mating machined and scraped surfaces to the
    ram are hardly worn at all, showing the original scraping. I have removed,
    cleaned the bearings of the cutterhead and re-installed.

    The ram movement forward and backward shows .001" difference over
    12 inches or so of ram travel, indicating the mating surface for the
    cutterhead.

    vn-wear-1.jpg

    The column face and knee show considerable wear and scoring. In fact
    the knee surface is covered with sheet metal, that was pinned at the
    rear and held on at the front of the knee with a strip screwed into the
    front of the dovetail. I am trying to assess the impacts of this wear
    and decide whether it makes sense to remove the knee, lower saddle and
    address them.

    vn-wear-3.jpg

    When I indicate the column face from the spindle face (sweeping a .0001"
    indicator through an arc) I get .0018" difference from left edge to right edge.
    Note the cutterhead angle is against the hard stop for horizontal position, but
    not itself indicated to confirm the angle yet, since I'm unsure what surface
    to use for this so far.

    vn-wear-2.jpg

    Indicating the lower saddle surface while moving the saddle forward and backward,
    I get .0015" difference over about 8" of travel (can do a more extensive test of
    this with a parallel, this was a rough check directly on the scraped surface).

    vn-wear-5.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails vn-wear-4.jpg  

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  3. #2
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    The sheet metal on the knee is badly scored and dented, no doubt from parts
    being dropped on it over the years:

    vn-wear-6.jpgvn-wear-4.jpg

    The sheet metal is .032" thick or so.

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    Nice looking machine, ive not seen one before. What intentions do you have for it? Rebuild or make do and get it up and running?

    Starting at the top, in a perfect world all should be square to eachother, your numbers dont sound bad over 10-12" imo. Looks like you have some scraping left at the top of the column, check at the bottom of the column too, its not a given that this is factory but should be a good reference unless someones scraped it bad.
    11.jpg

    The steel shim on top of the knee sounds like a bodge. I imagine its there to shim the saddle back to height after wear has been machined out of the knee/saddle. Not sure why copper shims where between top and bottom parts of the saddle but is highly likely they shouldnt be there. If it were mine id definitely have that out at least and keep an eye out for other bodges.
    The knee should be square to the column both ways, im guessing its dropped and rocking.

    How did the bottom of the table/top of saddle look, another likely are for wear.

    Cheers
    D

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    I agree there's still some scraping remnants on the column face, but it seems odd that it is .0015" off perpendicular to the spindle axis. Maybe first I need to remove the cutterhead again and determine if its scraped face is parallel to the spindle axis?

    If the only problem were the column face perpendicularity to the spindle, since this is a universal the table angle setting if indicated to the spindle would compensate I think.

    Unfortunately getting the lower saddle off the knee dovetail looks like it requires pulling one or two shafts out of the knee, which means quite a lot of tinkering with the mechanisms in there which look in very good shape.

    I'm tempted to remove the saddle gib and try to at least remove the steel sheet, but it seems likely in doing that I will end up with an unavoidable height discrepancy that would cause the power feed gears and shafts to bind.

    Has anyone removed the saddle completely and have a procedure for it? Seems like several people on PM have asked about it over the years but I can't find reference to someone who has done it?

    Thanks,
    Phil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandenberger View Post
    I agree there's still some scraping remnants on the column face, but it seems odd that it is .0015" off perpendicular to the spindle axis. Maybe first I need to remove the cutterhead again and determine if its scraped face is parallel to the spindle axis?

    If the only problem were the column face perpendicularity to the spindle, since this is a universal the table angle setting if indicated to the spindle would compensate I think.

    Unfortunately getting the lower saddle off the knee dovetail looks like it requires pulling one or two shafts out of the knee, which means quite a lot of tinkering with the mechanisms in there which look in very good shape.

    I'm tempted to remove the saddle gib and try to at least remove the steel sheet, but it seems likely in doing that I will end up with an unavoidable height discrepancy that would cause the power feed gears and shafts to bind.

    Has anyone removed the saddle completely and have a procedure for it? Seems like several people on PM have asked about it over the years but I can't find reference to someone who has done it?

    Thanks,
    Phil
    Not really, indicating the head mounting face as you did doesnt mean much till youve an idea of what the ram if doing, some wear in the ram dovetails could give you that .0015". Worth pointing out again that.0015" in this situation over that distance might only just be outside the tolerance of a new machine imo. Ram/Head mounting face/spindle are 3 separate elements that ideally should be perp to the column.

    Id only suggest removing the steel sheet if youre committed to getting things right, strip and scrape column and knee. The saddle youd get back to height with a way liner, like turcite etc.

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    top of top saddle surface, showing little to no scraping left, and
    some minor scoring. Clearly lubrication starved for a while, virtually
    all of the bijur lines were clogged.

    vn-wear-1-1-.jpg

    Underside of top saddle, showing little to no wear. Seems like as you'd
    expect the universal feature was seldom if ever used.

    vn-wear-2-1-.jpg

    Table bearing surfaces, no scraping evident except at the extreme ends,
    but no scoring.

    vn-wear-4-1-.jpgvn-wear-3-1-.jpg

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    Indicated bottom of ram from the lower saddle. Saddle/knee dip .003" from back
    to front over about 12" of travel.

    vn-wear-1-2-.jpg


    Also seems like indicating the bottom of the ram across the saddle left to right,
    there is .0015" or so difference over 8". Perhaps why the copper shim I mentioned earlier
    was between the upper and lower saddle (and only on one side).

    I am assuming the ram was seldom moved, so the likelihood of wear there is low,
    compared to the knee / table.

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    Indicating machined side of ram (where scraping remains, so
    a good reference surface) moving saddle from rear forward 12",
    looks like the knee twists right .004" or the ram twists left.

    ram-1.jpg

    Indicating the side of ram while raising the table, .0000"
    movement over 8" of table travel. So the knee elevation
    and side of ram are parallel.

    ram-2.jpg

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    Is looking like wear in the usual places. Makes sense the copper shims were in there to try and square the spindle with the table some.
    Youve the table off atm but you could strap a length of timber to the knee as a lever and indicate the column for knee rock, as is and with gibs adjusted, might need a thou clock for that one .
    knee-rock.jpg

    Could also see where you can get a thin feeler gauge in, dovetails front face of column/top of knee etc.

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    I ended up getting the saddle off (details in another thread on the Van Norman forum (VN 22LU lower saddle removal).

    The condition of the underside of the lower saddle and
    top of the knee (with the sheet metal shim removed) are thus:

    dovetail-wear-1.jpgdovetail-wear-3.jpgdovetail-wear-2.jpg

    As it turns out, when I indicate the underside of the ram from the
    lower saddle now that it is resting on the actual dovetail way, the
    variation is .001" or so, ignoring the scored areas.

    dovetail-wear-5.jpg

    I checked the column face at the bottom and indeed it shows original
    scraping, as it wasn't scored by debris over the years that
    got trapped between the column face and the knee at the top.

    So now, the big question is how to address the scoring/gouging on the
    knee dovetail? The obvious answer is probably to be scrape the top of
    the knee and then build up the saddle bottom with one of the various products (moglice, turcite, etc.) and of course install robust wipers.

    In terms of establishing the correct height for the saddle--

    Given the fairly serious scoring on the knee, it seems like whomever
    installed the sheet metal on the knee didn't mill down the knee surface
    to begin with, though maybe this machine has been "repaired" more than once.

    The only things that seem to matter in terms of the saddle height are the
    acme saddle screw and the splined shaft which drives gears which ultimately
    drive the table feed.

    Thanks,
    -Phil

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    Default Datum Surface for VN22L?

    Hi,

    I'm trying to determine what the best datum surface is for this VN22LU.

    The column surface has some fairly deep scoring, but also shows
    what I assume is original scraping from about 12" below the top all
    the way to the bottom. I haven't pulled the knee off yet.

    casting-1.jpg

    In reading Machine Tool Reconditioning, the usual procedure would be
    to use the spindle axis to check the column face.

    However since this machine has a cutterhead that can tilt through 90degrees,
    in turn mounted to the ram which moves forward and backward, any error in the ram
    dovetail could result in a lean in the ram, left to right or front to back.

    Anyone have recommendations on what datum surface I should trust, and how I should
    assess the first few surfaces?

    My overall goal here is to determine if this machine is in pretty good shape
    except for the serious knee scoring. If that's all that's wrong with it, I
    feel like I can address that somehow (perhaps grinding first or perhaps scraping, or worst-case filling the scoring with an epoxy product, if the knee surface is
    otherwise in good alignment?).

    Thanks,
    Phil

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    I am very slowly going through a similar exercise on a VN #28A. I chose the column face as the initial and key surface. I convinced myself that VN ram motion is a non-precision motion, and that I would probably never attempt to modify a setup into a 2nd setup simply by trusting the ram motion, so Y and Z irregularities didn't bother me, although I did not explicitly consider side-to-side tilt.

    On reflection, I should have at least inspected the ram ways and slide more carefully when I had things apart. There was a huge mass of chips thrown up into the ram rack when I received my (very used) machine, and it took considerable pushing fore and aft with long-handling brushes flipping chips out of the teeth, before I got full ram motion back. There was more than ample opportunity for chips to get dragged into the way/slide interface and score things up.

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfriedberg View Post
    I am very slowly going through a similar exercise on a VN #28A. I chose the column face as the initial and key surface. I convinced myself that VN ram motion is a non-precision motion, and that I would probably never attempt to modify a setup into a 2nd setup simply by trusting the ram motion, so Y and Z irregularities didn't bother me, although I did not explicitly consider side-to-side tilt.

    On reflection, I should have at least inspected the ram ways and slide more carefully when I had things apart. There was a huge mass of chips thrown up into the ram rack when I received my (very used) machine, and it took considerable pushing fore and aft with long-handling brushes flipping chips out of the teeth, before I got full ram motion back. There was more than ample opportunity for chips to get dragged into the way/slide interface and score things up.

    It seems like the ram (when locked in position) needs to be parallel
    to the knee... if not then by extension the spindle axis is thrown off.

    My ram was similarly packed with chips, I haven’t pulled it off yet
    but this is making me think I should.

    My ram doesn’t seem to be tilted, since in the vertical plane
    It is aligned to the knee movement. And the bottom and left side
    Seem like they are 90degrees to a good tolerance.


    Thanks,
    Phil


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