Automotive springs and white vinegar

majdomo · Jul 5, 2019

Alright - thought I may ask here before I junk these springs. I got some automotive springs with some surface rust from my mechanic. I pulled off some manually, but then dunked them in white vinegar for a day, day and a half to get the heavier stuff off. Some pitting was left behind, but by and large they were mainly just cleaned up.

Now I’m concerned about hydrogen embrittlement. Is this something to be worried about, or no? I did wash them with some water and baking soda, but they are now painted and ready for installation. They were not baked after the vinegar bath.

Just need to know if they’re hosed or what. Thanks!

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thermite · Jul 5, 2019

majdomo said:
Now I’m concerned about hydrogen embrittlement. Is this something to be worried about, or no? I did wash them with some water and baking soda, but they are now painted and ready for installation. They were not baked after the vinegar bath.

Just need to know if they’re hosed or what. Thanks!

"400-Day" clock mainspring fair-certain, drillpress quill retract spring, possibly, but multi-leaf truck/automotive leaf springs? Doubt it is any more concern than the dice-roll used springs have already as risk.

Single-leaf, I'd use new just on principle. Mess-with labour either way vs reduced risk, new parts.

Might want to soda - or other media - blast them next time?

2CW

majdomo · Jul 5, 2019

Thanks much. They are coil springs if it matters.

It’s a roll of the dice, given, just don’t want to, uh, die because of some physical reaction with the vinegar.

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thermite · Jul 5, 2019

majdomo said:
Thanks much. They are coil springs if it matters.

It’s a roll of the dice, given, just don’t want to, uh, die because of some physical reaction with the vinegar.

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Sorrry... coils ARE more susceptible to failure! Not just from acid - surface imperfections in general - those pits?

Worse - they are more often applied in a geometry where it matters more when they fail.

Much wiser to install NEW.

NB: Search your specific vehicle & MY for a history as to failures:

CarComplaints.com | Car Problems, Car Complaints, & Repair/Recall Information

Some makes and models have lots of reserve, failure is borderline UNHEARD of, even after decades of neglect.

Others are not so lucky.

johnoder · Jul 5, 2019

Or the Houston spring shop that put kinks in them for a REARCH job - for a '30 Packard no less

Doubt it is any more concern than the dice-roll used springs have already as risk.

majdomo · Jul 5, 2019

I’m no expert on this stuff, just working on my modern classic car. These are springs from the same model, different trim level of car which lowers the ride height slightly and should be stiffer when taking a corner. Geometry would change slightly but not out of range for what the chassis is already engineered for.

It’s a balance to match the stock height dampeners, which these should do. I do know the history of these, and at 80k miles they should be fine from that perspective, but they had some surface rust with other areas of pitting. A shame too since they are OEM.

However I’ll likely junk these and shop for new aftermarket that will match the rebound rate and height reduction that these would have provided. Or get new springs and shorter dampeners that match, it’s more money but cheaper than a failure!

Shame about the Packard re-arch. Even pros get it wrong I suppose.

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TDegenhart · Jul 5, 2019

If you can bake them, any embrittlement is reversible. If they are mission critical, replace them.

Tom

thermite · Jul 5, 2019

majdomo said:
Shame about the Packard re-arch. Even pros get it wrong I suppose.

There is (or was) a proper spring shop just around the corner, here. They'd casually pull raw leaf stock off a rack and make NEW leaves in a New York Minute, had the needful heat-treat facility as well.

Coils? Those, too are custom-wound every day. Somewhere. Variable-spacing and variable diameter all part of a day's work.

The only "hard ones" to match that I am aware of are those wound with tapered round rod stock.

Be glad your "classic" is a motorcar. The REALLY hard springs in several flavours of strange were found on armoured-vehicle suspensions "longer ago the weirder".

majdomo · Jul 5, 2019

TDegenhart said:
If you can bake them, any embrittlement is reversible. If they are mission critical, replace them.

Tom

Unfortunately I’ve already painted them, primer plus epoxy paint. I can bake them (wife won’t like it but not the weirdest thing to bake one’s car parts, right?) but not sure if the paint has sealed them up to the point where the hydrogen can’t escape?

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majdomo · Jul 5, 2019

thermite said:
There is (or was) a proper spring shop just around the corner, here. They'd casually pull raw leaf stock off a rack and make NEW leaves in a New York Minute, had the needful heat-treat facility as well.

Coils? Those, too are custom-wound every day. Somewhere. Variable-spacing and variable diameter all part of a day's work.

The only "hard ones" to match that I am aware of are those wound with tapered round rod stock.

Be glad your "classic" is a motorcar. The REALLY hard springs in several flavours of strange were found on armoured-vehicle suspensions "longer ago the weirder".

Yeah, the rears have tapered ends. Fronts are just cut, same diameter as the rest. I can only imagine the oddities on an armored vehicle, though sometimes I feel like we need one here in LA!

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thermite · Jul 5, 2019

majdomo said:
Yeah, the rears have tapered ends. Fronts are just cut, same diameter as the rest. I can only imagine the oddities on an armored vehicle, though sometimes I feel like we need one here in LA!

"One", Hell!

Pretty long border to cover between the Kalifornicyahstan Soviet Socialist Republik and real America, Mexico included, to prep for containing the rising Zombie Apocalypse since y'all "weaponized" cancers of various classes - political included...

Where is Jefferson Davis & Co. when you really NEED a secessionist? Or George Goethels when the San Andreas, properly excavated, could be far more useful than the Panama Canal?

Meanwhile.. the Empire of Mexico is gradually taking California BACK. And will be far the worse for it..

We may just have to keep doing this over until we get it right?

ballen · Jul 6, 2019

majdomo said:
not sure if the paint has sealed them up to the point where the hydrogen can’t escape?

Hydrogen is the smallest, lightest, and fastest-moving gas molecule. It's very very hard to keep it confined, even if you want to. So no, the paint (even good quality epoxy) won't stop them from escaping the metal surface.

thermite · Jul 6, 2019

ballen said:
Hydrogen is the smallest, lightest, and fastest-moving gas molecule. It's very very hard to keep it confined, even if you want to. So no, the paint (even good quality epoxy) won't stop them from escaping the metal surface.

W/R any acid treatment, it is the Hydronium Ion (H3O+) as carries the killer - available release of nascent hydrogen atoms that vigorously seek new mates.

One wants to get those OUT of the metal, (as with heat..) not trap them IN it.

Paint - a bunch of polymers of long-chain hydrocarbons (the "vehicle") & their passengers (pigments, but not-only..) - would just eat-em up into minor alterations in its own chemistry.

If I NEED chemicals to de-rust an alloy of Iron? My preference is for caustics rather than acids. That said, both have downsides.

Media blasting, OTOH, there is at the least less "hidden from view".

2 molal worth.

majdomo · Jul 11, 2019

Thanks all for your input. I did end up installing the springs, just to see what they looked like, but will be swapping them out for some out of the box new springs over the next week.

If nothing else, the spring rate on the ones I refurbished isn’t stiff enough for my liking. That and I just don’t trust them. But I’ve learned a ton, which is worth something!

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n2zon · Jul 12, 2019

majdomo said:
Thanks all for your input. I did end up installing the springs, just to see what they looked like, but will be swapping them out for some out of the box new springs over the next week.

If nothing else, the spring rate on the ones I refurbished isn’t stiff enough for my liking. That and I just don’t trust them. But I’ve learned a ton, which is worth something!

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Probably best. Springs are among the most stressed parts in a car.

thermite · Jul 12, 2019

n2zon said:
Probably best. Springs are among the most stressed parts in a car.

Could was.. but they don't outright FAIL of it nearly as often as the nut that holds the steering wheel.

majdomo · Jul 12, 2019

thermite said:
Could was.. but they don't outright FAIL of it nearly as often as the nut that holds the steering wheel.

Too many nuts behind the wheel, agreed!

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