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Bronze vs. steel gibs

SzoylentGreen

Plastic
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Seems like a lot machines use mild steel for gibs. But certain ones use a PTFE type material.

Do any machines use bronze gibs?

Why do you suppose steel on cast iron seems to be a popular gib style? But bronze is of course widely used for plain bearings.

I'm rebuilding a machine with steel gibs, scraped all the dovetails, but as expected, gibs are too thin now, so I'm thinking about gluing bronze on the bearing face of the gib, will be about 0.020 thick. Any issues with bronze faced gibs, or would putting bronze (or some other material) on the back side, and leaving the steel gib facing the cast iron dovetail be better?
 
Maybe bronze could cause some kind of galvanic corrosion? Also maybe too expensive.

I know the guys that scraped in a machine for me many moons ago fixed a too skinny gib by gluing some hard fiber or plastic material on the back side of the gib to make it thicker. Turcite was on the front or business side.
 
I might be wrong, but at least on older machines gibs are made of cast iron, not steel.
Cast iron has self-lubricating properties and is much cheaper than bronze.
Gluing a shim on the back side of the gib is a fairly common remedy to wear. However, if you intend to add Turcite/Rulon on the bearing face, you are better off calculating the proper thickness (plus scraping allowance) for the plastic strip and leave the back bare.

Paolo
 
Seems like a lot machines use mild steel for gibs. But certain ones use a PTFE type material.

Do any machines use bronze gibs?

Why do you suppose steel on cast iron seems to be a popular gib style? But bronze is of course widely used for plain bearings.

I'm rebuilding a machine with steel gibs, scraped all the dovetails, but as expected, gibs are too thin now, so I'm thinking about gluing bronze on the bearing face of the gib, will be about 0.020 thick. Any issues with bronze faced gibs, or would putting bronze (or some other material) on the back side, and leaving the steel gib facing the cast iron dovetail be better?

In contact with some oils/coolants bronze suffers horrible corrosion and transforms into a green/black slime. Could be that modern oils/coolants don't do that and in that case bronze is an excellent gib material as it is inherently far cleaner than CI.
 
What brand and Model machine? Can you give us a few photo's? I am assuming they are square gibs with set screws pushing from the back? Does the back of the gib have alignment holes drilled into them? Trying to advise on a guess because you don't give enough information would be like a DR. diagnosing an illness over the internet without all the info or a photo or Zoom.
 
Is this on a Bridgeport or something else?

I've glued brass shim stock to the back of a couple Bridgeport gibs before and it worked well enough. As others stated, most gibs are actually ductile iron as it wears better and is still maliable enough to bend if needed. IMO, the gib doesn't see as much force as the flat-ways (at least on the horizontal ways), as long as it's adjusted correctly and not run around with the lock engaged. That being said, I think they went with iron as a bronze gib would be too soft and likely deform under the lock. All the clapped-out Bridgeport's I've seen showed smooth gradual wear on the dovetails, and more excessive wear on the flat ways.

On other machines? I'd be inclined to replace the gib with what it had before, if not that then what was used on newer generations of the machine.
 
Is this on a Bridgeport or something else?

I've glued brass shim stock to the back of a couple Bridgeport gibs before and it worked well enough. As others stated, most gibs are actually ductile iron as it wears better and is still maliable enough to bend if needed. IMO, the gib doesn't see as much force as the flat-ways (at least on the horizontal ways), as long as it's adjusted correctly and not run around with the lock engaged. That being said, I think they went with iron as a bronze gib would be too soft and likely deform under the lock. All the clapped-out Bridgeport's I've seen showed smooth gradual wear on the dovetails, and more excessive wear on the flat ways.

On other machines? I'd be inclined to replace the gib with what it had before, if not that then what was used on newer generations of the machine.

I would be very interested to know how and with what you glued the brass on the gibs. I'm busy at this very moment experimenting with this and I'm leaning towards solder... :)
 
I would be very interested to know how and with what you glued the brass on the gibs. I'm busy at this very moment experimenting with this and I'm leaning towards solder... :)


I soldered a bronze piece to build up the sliding block in an old shaper. Not a "gib" quite, really a "wear strip", but same sort of working environment with movement and oil. It went well, although I had to cook a lot of oil out of the CI.

I assume it wore OK, it's been a number of years since I saw that machine. Have heard nothing about it since, and I expect I would if there was an issue.

I do not think I would trust a glue there. Mr King has mentioned using countersunk screws to secure wear strips etc. I assume they were bronze as well.

EDIT: The block was not something that would be be very susceptible to being distorted by any sort of "bimetal strip" effect due to heating. A long gib might possibly have some stresses locked in by the heat of soldering due to the expansion rate of bronze vs iron. I used soft solder, which requires a lot less heat/temperature, but that was more for convenience not any worry about stresses or bending.
 
Seems like a lot machines use mild steel for gibs. But certain ones use a PTFE type material.

Do any machines use bronze gibs?

Why do you suppose steel on cast iron seems to be a popular gib style? But bronze is of course widely used for plain bearings.

I'm rebuilding a machine with steel gibs, scraped all the dovetails, but as expected, gibs are too thin now, so I'm thinking about gluing bronze on the bearing face of the gib, will be about 0.020 thick. Any issues with bronze faced gibs, or would putting bronze (or some other material) on the back side, and leaving the steel gib facing the cast iron dovetail be better?

Bronze WAS the extra-cost and BRAG about it option half a century ago. Even on a lowly South Bend "Toolroom" ten.

Also a stock go-to for LOTS of "wear strips". One can purchase steel with Bronze already heavily PLATED onto it as the working face. Got some here.

When you are only doing ones or fews, it being easier to work as to straightening and not volunteering to JF snap if dropped vs CI MORE than offsets the extra cost of the SOLID Bronze material.

Mild steel facing CI? Surely not MY first choice. Conversely, Bronze makes a good mate to either of CI or Steel. (Nickel) Aluminium Bronze, however - not so much. THAT combo NEEDS good lube, and all the time, not just once in a while.

If forced to use steel at all? I would want it hard as can be, and lapped to near-as-dammit mirror-smooth. That's on bearing effctiveness.. but also BACKWARDS.

The rule is the the least-cost and most easily replaced side should be the sacrificial side - the one that wears worst and fastest. eg; Spindle bearing, not spindle, gib, not body dovetail, etc.
 
One I used thin double-sided tape. The other I think was a simple epoxy, but I don't remember what kind. Both held up fine. I've seen one that was riveted on as well. IMO a lot of retention methods will work as It's not really a moving surface (as long as it's on the stationary side of the gib) so you're only trying to retain the shim stock for assembly and keep it there when the gib slides a little during adjustment. I cut the shims to cover as much surface as possible with the exception of where the lock pushes on it, because the twisting action of the locking bolt would wrinkle and tear the shim. The Bridgeports I did it on were pretty worn, so the shims were just to get the gib closer to that sweet spot where there isn't too much play in the middle of travel but it doesn't bind on the ends. It's more illusive the more experienced the machine gets;). If the ways have been re-scrapped then I imagine the shims will be under even less adjustment and more prone to stay put.
 
One I used thin double-sided tape. The other I think was a simple epoxy, but I don't remember what kind. Both held up fine. I've seen one that was riveted on as well. IMO a lot of retention methods will work as It's not really a moving surface (as long as it's on the stationary side of the gib) so you're only trying to retain the shim stock for assembly and keep it there when the gib slides a little during adjustment. I cut the shims to cover as much surface as possible with the exception of where the lock pushes on it, because the twisting action of the locking bolt would wrinkle and tear the shim. The Bridgeports I did it on were pretty worn, so the shims were just to get the gib closer to that sweet spot where there isn't too much play in the middle of travel but it doesn't bind on the ends. It's more illusive the more experienced the machine gets;). If the ways have been re-scrapped then I imagine the shims will be under even less adjustment and more prone to stay put.

For-sure.

A VERY handy purchase is about a hundred-dollar "assortment" of 12" square sheets of Bronze shim stock in various thicknesses. MMC has them. Not hard to cut. Not hard to de-burr or simply pound flat at edges.

Prolly last a body 20 year if not 40, 'coz IF yah use one size all up, at least you know which size to order just ONE sheet of as you go forward.

Stainless kit, but smaller is another. Non-rusting is good for shimming motors, pumps, gearboxes, machinery legs and pads down where stuff get exposed to various "wet and potentially corrosive influences".

Stainless otherwise is to be avoided for any moving or sliding surfaces, though, so if you can only stash ONE kit? Make it the Bronze!
 
Not knowing what kind of gib or machine, I would machine or grind off some (plus the .003" glue) material and glue on some .032" Rulon 142 or Turcite B. So much easier. It scrapes like butter. That's the professional way in my opinion.
 
Not knowing what kind of gib or machine, I would machine or grind off some (plus the .003" glue) material and glue on some .032" Rulon 142 or Turcite B. So much easier. It scrapes like butter. That's the professional way in my opinion.

"That simple" is it? Sounds like a plan to make an expensive problem out of a cheap solution to me.

Good job he didn't ask you how to make an ignorant slice of buttered toast whilst "Not knowing"..

:(

Yah like to scrape the easy to work with materials when there may be no need to scrape AT ALL?

Why f**k around with glue and plastic? Go for the very best!

Anti-Friction Wear Facing Material for Discerning Professionals

All-natural. Won't stain the hands. And it even leaves a better taste in yer mouth.

What's not to like about THAT?

:D
 
It's an American made lathe, but it's one of the 'prohibited' brands, so I wont't mention it.

I was asking a general question about bearing material for gibs, about a cast iron way sliding against a steel vs. cast iron vs. bronze.
 
It's an American made lathe, but it's one of the 'prohibited' brands, so I wont't mention it.

I was asking a general question about bearing material for gibs, about a cast iron way sliding against a steel vs. cast iron vs. bronze.

Bronze won that battle before 'steel' was even common. Works rather well against Iron.

"Prohibited" eh? Well .. Teflon and K-Y Jelly is about the only thing the alleged "Iron" on the @las ones won't just "run away and HIDE from" as fretting-corrosion particulates.

They wear just about as fast as you can traverse the silly things.

Butter goeth rancid, BTW. Might try "ghee" instead?

Tried MbS2 "Moly". It helped. Also turned half the residence and clothing kinda silvery color. Which kinda messes-up yer social life!

Try the K-Y jelly or "Astro Glide" instead.
Not as if you were NOT being f**ked, is it?

:D


"DAMHIKT"
 
I soldered a bronze piece to build up the sliding block in an old shaper. Not a "gib" quite, really a "wear strip", but same sort of working environment with movement and oil. It went well, although I had to cook a lot of oil out of the CI.

I assume it wore OK, it's been a number of years since I saw that machine. Have heard nothing about it since, and I expect I would if there was an issue.

I do not think I would trust a glue there. Mr King has mentioned using countersunk screws to secure wear strips etc. I assume they were bronze as well.

EDIT: The block was not something that would be be very susceptible to being distorted by any sort of "bimetal strip" effect due to heating. A long gib might possibly have some stresses locked in by the heat of soldering due to the expansion rate of bronze vs iron. I used soft solder, which requires a lot less heat/temperature, but that was more for convenience not any worry about stresses or bending.

Thank you. I'll then persevere with solder. :) I'm not a fan of screws there. If by some magic they come loose, they'll cause problems.
 
Not knowing what kind of gib or machine, I would machine or grind off some (plus the .003" glue) material and glue on some .032" Rulon 142 or Turcite B. So much easier. It scrapes like butter. That's the professional way in my opinion.

If you're "Not knowing..." you should probably not do anything and that includes the above adventure.
That's the professional way in my opinion...
 
If you're "Not knowing..." you should probably not do anything and that includes the above adventure.
That's the professional way in my opinion...

Ermmm.. full disclosure?

"Lurpak" butter? I cheat like Hell.

"Kerry Gold" or "Danish Creamery". Now and again "Finlandia". Whichever is on "big sale".

Crime against humanity to do anything more energetic to an @las "LSO" than send it off to be melted.

So as to release the souls of the poor metal atoms trapped in such a disgusting prison and hope for reincarnation as sumthin' actually worthy!

They have served their penance. Onward and upward they go!
Turcite or Rulon can find their own path to exaltation

"Bhagavad Gita" instead of Connelly izzat?

"Karma" thing. Both flavours of it. Pan-celestial as well as local.

:D
 
Seeing I am the ONLY professional Rebuilder in the forum and give answers because I have done it and got paid to do it. I would recommend doing it the easy way and not offer guesses as many on here do. Who pretend to be experts. Here is a show of a class I taught in Denmark. Can the other experts show there You tube shows ??? One of many on you tube.
Scraping class 2017 in Denmark - YouTube
 
Seeing I am the ONLY professional Rebuilder in the forum and give answers because I have done it and got paid to do it. I would recommend doing it the easy way and not offer guesses as many on here do. Who pretend to be experts.

"Expert" at what actually fits a(ny) given situation has SQRT-FA to do with belly-push muscles OR constant selling - and a great deal to do with common sense, your Majesty.

You can find someone willing to "pay you" to mill material off a tiny mild-steel gib, clear for expensive glue, add thick Rulon or Turcite, scrape away full NINETY PERCENT of it, just to tighten-up what "appears to be" an @las lathe-shaped object?

You've done the nation a valuable service.

TWO fools, not just the one, one are diverted from interfering in the lives of wiser folks whilst they engage in such a pointless exercise.

"The hard way".

And then you want to BRAG on that? Same as you did with the "Wrong-Fu" milling-machine-shaped-object? Then launch a WAR - after YOU had run the thread for weeks that it was "unprofessional" and should be DELETED?

Ipse Dixit

Nobody forced you to do that. Nobody even tricked you into it. EITHER time.

How "expert" is that?

More common sense. Less belly-push.

Please.

And whom, ever, gave you the idea you were either of "ONLY" or "professional"?

You KNOW that was never the case! YOU introduced many of them yourself!

Professionals from Europe, Asia, and Australia!

Africa and LATAM as well .. if you'd but admit it "probable", not just "possible"!

The NEED drives the craft, and "need" they have had, always - the further from the OEM factory, the greater the need of rebuilding skills, and the greater demand they be effective and economic of success, not just monkey-patching.

Only arrogant SALESMAN in the forum? THAT we have plenty of evidence to support. Sore TIRESOME evidence, even.

Give PM a break, willyah? You have your own sales website. "Get paid" off THAT one, please.

Let those more interested in learning and sharing than bragging or selling carry-on as they see fit, HERE!
 
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