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  1. #1
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    Default Brown and Sharp MicroMaster

    hi all!

    been slowing working at a micromaster 8x24. Pulled the table off last weekend and the ways don't look great.
    curious what advise you all might have.

    20200330_172531.jpg
    20200330_172534.jpg
    20200330_172614.jpg
    20200330_172527.jpg

    thanks!

    landy

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    I found this booklet on Vintage Machinery. http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2185/23023.pdf

    That is typical problem when the lube system craps out. The ways get scored. I bet the bottom of the table is as bad? You have a few choices if you want to fix it; send it to a rebuilder and have them grind, milled and then scraped or learn how to scrape it your self. Do it Yourself will cost you some $$ depending on how deep your pockets are. I can guide you here if you want to do it. Also I wonder if the saddle ways are bad too?
    Last edited by Richard King; 03-31-2020 at 09:20 AM.

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    A shame it likely was run dry and so scored. The cross ways may be just as bad. Re scraping could be a $2500 job or three times that. Likely Richard would say use one of the plastic way solutions, if he recomendes saving it. He is the man on such. That you can buy an 824 with OK ways for under $2,000 now a days might be thought of. You could learn scraping and spend 1,000 or two for tools and do the job yourself, that depends on how much free time you have. It would be a world class machine when done.

    Oh I see he has posted..good.

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    Last year an auction house offered me an 824 Micromaster that had no bids for $100. Frank the auction house owner and pretty sharp on machines said it only needed a drive belt. I did not have room so passed on it.
    It did look good and the ways I could see looked Ok/good.

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    thank you for the response!
    The bottom of the table is not scored at all. I forgot to take picture before I set it down. when I pick it back up I will defiantly take some pictures.

    as for the saddle, what I can see looks fine, then again, so did the table before it was removed...

    thanks again

    landy

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    You could blanch a fine hone over it evenly and and then try to determine how high and low, and flat and true it seems to be,

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    I'd say that's going to need a regrind on the bed and saddle. Tough call on whether to run with the rebuild or look for something in better shape. If you're good at looking you could find one needing a lot less work and get to a running grinder a lot cheaper than rebuilding. I got one of those $100 deals like what was offered to MB. Right place at the right time and all...still pinching myself.

    20191220_133157.jpg

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  10. #8
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    Hard to believe the table bottom does not have scratches too. The table is longer, so if you scrape it you will have to scrape the table first and match fit it to the bed. You could glue on some Rulon 142 / same as Turcite B, to the saddle and scrape it. I can talk you through scraping top. Then you would need to regrind the table top. If you decide to do that...I will have to be a bit more detailed. Or as Buck said stone it, fix the oil issue and run it. It won't be micro accurate and it will wear so much faster, but it won't cost a ton of money. If someone asked me to repair that and if the table is not scored I would say 50 hours plus materials. NOT doing the saddle or column. I charge around $100.00 p/h as I would bet rebuilders in your area charge too....so your looking at 5000.00 to 5500.00 or less. No need to grind the saddle if you put on the .047" to .062" I buy my Rulon 142 from Materials Database | TriStar Plastics Corp. They sell it by the sq. foot..
    Last edited by Richard King; 03-31-2020 at 05:19 PM.

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    Richard,

    I have the table setting on some 4x4's Went out and ran my hand along that back flat way, and it does have a few scratches. Nothing like what the bed has, but scratched none the less.

    I had already planned on going through the hydraulic system. Oil has been drained, im cleaning decades worth of mud out of the tank. just resealed the table cylinder, and ordered a six pack of filters. Also went through and cataloged all the metering valves to replace them and order 25' of copper tubing as some lines are damaged.
    I will get the hydraulic system function as it should ( fortunately hydraulics' is what I do for money ).

    But i'm not sure what the best course of action will be on these ways. I almost feel like I need to pull the column and see what kind of shape they are in. because if they are wrecked as well, I don't see a rebuilding the ways to be the correct choice. I could likely find a better machine for less $.

    So if I go with the stone and working hydraulics theory, is there anything more I can/should do that makes sense?

    thank you for your, and everyone else's time

    landy

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    So you can't afford the re-scrape. Do what Buck said. I suspect the center of the saddle top is high in the middle. To bad you can't check it. If you can't then buy a https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/05139605 and start using the rough side and wet it with mineral spirits and stone off the burrs. Once the roughness seems smooth concentrate in the middle 30 % and go deeper till it feels lower. If you had a precision level you could set it on the flat and vee and move it side to side watching the bubble. Ideally it will show low in middle, if not stone it flat. Set the level in the V up right. It's not ideal but should show the concave convex of the 2 sides. A camel back would be better.

    After it is flat or a little low in the middle flip the stone and wet stone it with the smooth side. Then do the same thing on the table. then blow and clean out the lube lines. I would also replace the BiJur unit with the next higher number - lets say it is a FJB-0 replace it with a FJB-1. Be sure to run the hydraulic cylinder by hand before the table is put back on to see the oil come out of the holes. Also buy the Vactra / hydraulic oil. I forget the number.

    Also buy a round edge stone completely round or https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/00579425 so you can chamfer the oil grove edges as they will be sharpe and will not let the oil out of the grooves. Do Not grind the table top as it is work hardened and rusty. I would use a putty knife and scotch brite to wet with mineral spirits to clean it off, wet stone it and bottom of the chuck. Grinding the table top will loosen the the hardness of the table top and warp the table. If you rescraped it you would grind ot scrape the top of table first to break thru the hardness. That area will dull carbide. BUT Don't scrape or grind it if you only stoning. Then put the mag chuck on and grind it co-planer. Let us know what happens please.
    Last edited by Richard King; 04-01-2020 at 09:51 AM.

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    Got the machine leveled up and check across the table. think I need to scotch brite the flat on the V-way side and check it again. but here is what I came up with so far.
    stones should show up today.

    20200407_113516.jpg
    20200407_113535.jpg
    20200407_113554.jpg
    20200407_113613.jpg
    20200407_113655.jpg

    pictures go from left the right.

    thanks

    landon

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    20200407_113736.jpg
    20200407_113808.jpg

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    Lay a dowel in the.....V - what your measuring means nothing. On 2 nd thought You better take that to a rebuilder

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    LMFAO!, Of that I have no doubt

    will get a pin figured out and try that again...

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    QT : [cotch brite the flat on the V-way side] Scotch bright does so little and does not take the peaks so I think it not much good for anything here. Honing may make it easier to evaluate but will not fix the machine.. After honing you might assemble and see how it runs but likely not very high precision..
    Honing might tell if it is close enough to scrape..or needs grind and scrape.
    Likely Richard can tell with just looking at it... and he is the go to person on the likes of this.
    Agree not the only guy, but better than me and most guys on PM.

    We had a big old chain broach that was way wore out but could not be moved. The scrapper guy we brought in said it was way past scraping but we had him scrape anyways...he made it good again but it costed a bundle.

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    Grinding the table may not be so bad right now, when I had my table top ground on my B&S 13 Universal it was about $270.00. That was the top and bottom of the table. I had a place local to me do it though so there were no shipping costs involved. Are you really in need of such high precision right now that the cost is warranted? Can you just rebuild the mechanical portions and run it the way it is until you can justify the cost? The consensus is to stone it really good, get the lube system going and run it. Don't get sucked down the rabbit hole of you can't justify the costs and missed time with the machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SShep71 View Post
    Don't get sucked down the rabbit hole of you can't justify the costs and missed time with the machine.
    I'm living that rabbit hole with a 618 micromaster. Every few months some hydraulic creep mod (previous owner) breaks. I'm rethinking its value and my time sourcing impossible to find parts. My current issue is the lube tube on one vertical way stopped working. Besides the meter being clogged, the lube tube was broken off in the casting. It took 5 hrs to disassemble (the upright straps holding the spindle and way covers need to come off) to drill out the vibration resistant, wrought iron rivets holding the tubes in place. The rivets have a hole through the center for the tube..

    good luck
    gary

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    Those are a lead bushing that the OD is tapered and they are taped in to hold the copper tube as it compresses into the hole. I see this outfit has a lot of BiJur Buy Bijur Delimon Service Parts | Replacement Pumps & More!

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    Quote Originally Posted by landymac View Post
    Got the machine leveled up and check across the table. think I need to scotch brite the flat on the V-way side and check it again. but here is what I came up with so far.
    stones should show up today.

    20200407_113516.jpg
    20200407_113535.jpg
    20200407_113554.jpg
    20200407_113613.jpg
    20200407_113655.jpg

    pictures go from left the right.

    thanks

    landon

    I have no idea what you think you are checking.
    That right side you are in contact with means nothing. let me make that bigger NOTHING.
    T'is a nice level and helpful if used right.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    Those are a lead bushing that the OD is tapered and they are taped in to hold the copper tube as it compresses into the hole. I see this outfit has a lot of BiJur Buy Bijur Delimon Service Parts | Replacement Pumps & More!
    Hi,

    Thanks... I used to call them tapered drill bushings or a hole sleeve back in the day... but, the ones in the machine look like a wrought iron rivet with a 3/32 hole drilled in it. the link to bijur a looks like the correct diameter-ish. I need a 0 meter as well, so bijur wins
    The amount of disassembly and drilling them out is still painful for something that should be simple.

    Fortunately, I don't have to scrape ways. Its been too many years away from that kind of work

    -g


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