Can I use Nylon instead of Turcite?

Spyderedge · Dec 12, 2016

Would it be worth a shot to try and use MDS (molybdenum disulfide filled) nylon as a way wear surface where Turcite, Moglice, etc would normally be used?

How could you remove the burr after scraping the plastic surface?

What adhesives can bond to nylon and hold it to the ways?

A foot of 1" sheet from McMaster is under fifty cents, I'm going to try it on some homemade slideway surfaces and if it doesn't work, oh well.

Ziggy2 · Dec 12, 2016

I think it will be a loser on two accounts. First, I don't know of an adhesive that will work with that particular plastic. The MDS makes it to waxy.

The other issue is that this material is alright for a wear block, I would not rate it very good for most machine tool way applications. I would consider it too soft for most applications using it for a way surface.

RC99 · Dec 12, 2016

Nylon absorbs water.

You can use Ertalyte apparently which has only come to me from word of mouth so I have no experience in using it.

Ertalyte(R) PET-P - Quadrant

Ziggy2 · Dec 12, 2016

RC99 said:
Nylon absorbs water.

You can use Ertalyte apparently which has only come to me from word of mouth so I have no experience in using it.

Ertalyte(R) PET-P - Quadrant

What did you use for an adhesive?

I tried a cyanoacrylate that I would regard as poor at best in bonding to steel.

Richard King · Dec 12, 2016

Unlike some who guess at answers on here I have used Nylatron on machines for years. Graphite impregnated nylon. One job I used it on a Bullard Horizontal Bar for Dezurik in Sartell MN. Had to have been 30 years ago. The ways were galled deep and the price of Ampco 18 was more then the customer wanted to pay. We needed to put on 3/8" material because the galls were so deep. I also added a new central automatic lube system because the machine originally has a Trabon grease system that attracted chips and would act like lapping material. I also used it on a 30" Blanchard table, glue and flat head brass screws. Never heard a word and in this business "no news is good news".

It was a bitch to apply and stick. We used 3M epoxy and brass flat head screws, scratched and sanded the side we glued. I checked back with Dezurik for years and they told me the machine stayed true for years until they updated to a new CNC machine. Had to have run 20 years before that happened.

I now use Rulon or Turcite because it has been acid etched on one side.

Hardinge has been putting white Nylon or Teflon on its saddles to run against its bed plates for years. It is bonded on and oven dried (forgot what they call the baking method) at the factory. If I were you I would contact Bearing Manufacturer | Bearing Distributor | TriStar Plastics Corp.
and ask them. Spydy how about use the Nylon you can buy and document it for us on here. Rich

DMF_TomB · Dec 12, 2016

Richard King said:
Unlike some who guess at answers on here I have used Nylatron on machines for years. Graphite impregnated nylon. One job I used it on a Bullard Horizontal Bar for Dezurik in Sartell MN. Had to have been 30 years ago. The ways were galled deep and the price of Ampco 18 was more then the customer wanted to pay. We needed to put on 3/8" material because the galls were so deep. I also added a new central automatic lube system because the machine originally has a Trabon grease system that attracted chips and would act like lapping material. I also used it on a 30" Blanchard table, glue and flat head brass screws. Never heard a word and in this business "no news is good news".

It was a bitch to apply and stick. We used 3M epoxy and brass flat head screws, scratched and sanded the side we glued. I checked back with Dezurik for years and they told me the machine stayed true for years until they updated to a new CNC machine. Had to have run 20 years before that happened.

I now use Rulon or Turcite because it has been acid etched on one side.

Hardinge has been putting white Nylon or Teflon on its saddles to run against its bed plates for years. It is bonded on and oven dried (forgot what they call the baking method) at the factory. If I were you I would contact Bearing Manufacturer | Bearing Distributor | TriStar Plastics Corp.
and ask them. Spydy how about use the Nylon you can buy and document it for us on here. Rich

.
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i have made many nylon parts over the decades and it is famous for changing size depending on wet or dry as much as .010 per inch. if kept always wet with oil maybe stable. if wet and dry repeatedly that can cause problems
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i have made nylon rollers with bore under size .001 and pressed in bearings and put roller in drawer as spare part ready to use. a year later i turn part and bearing falls out. outside diameter gets smaller and internal diameter gets bigger it shrinks to center of mass. .002" change in dimension is common
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i have had 6" dia nylon on a lathe drilling 1.5" hole down the center and as soon as through it cracked like a wood log with shrinkage crack. tried 2 more parts and all did the same. similar to wood it changes dimension wet or dry. can crack like a wood log under load and often has internal shrinkage stress
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turcite epoxy adhesive bond gets weaker with age. when new it is extremely difficult to scrape off but when decades old it will often peel off if scraper between turcite and metal and you split or force epoxy bond to separate.
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with nylon i would worry about epoxy bond failure even more. many adhesives AND plastics like nylon get brittle with age. they flex somewhat when new but when older can snap or break. how much ? guessing from experience roughly 20 to 50% as strong left compared to when new.
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i would not use a cheap "plastic" the labor is far more than cost of material

TDegenhart · Dec 12, 2016

Give this some thought.

http://www.quadrantplastics.com/fil...dhesive_bonding_instructions_version_2014.pdf

Tom

Spyderedge · Dec 12, 2016

I am also open to using other types of plastics such as UHMWPE tape which has adhesive on one side, and I still have to research Teflon filled delrin.

Rich, thank you for some real world feedback on the material. As I said it's so cheap I'm going to buy it anyway and test it out. I have to make an order with then soon for felt wicks that fit my Hardinge.

Sent from my XT1053 using Tapatalk

DMF_TomB · Dec 12, 2016

my experience is old turcite often has weak or no bond strength at edges. i believe higher feed rates and if dry plastic gets hot at edges and dries out expands heat and shrinks dry and bond breaks
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i literally have peeled off old trucite in roughly 1 minute. new turcite is tough it does not peel. normally have to mill off.
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i would be wary of using any other plastic without having experience taking old machines apart for wear material replacement. i have seen turcite so worn metal on metal contact causing the metal surface to need to be remachined.
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i have only done 25 turcite jobs and about 1/2 were decade old rebuild jobs. not very experienced but enough to be wary of using cheap plastic

Spyderedge · Dec 13, 2016

Does anybody know of a source for thin bearing bronze sheet or shim material? Any grade of bearing bronze should be alright for my application in case the nylon doesn't work out.

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[486] · Dec 14, 2016

Richard King said:
The ways were galled deep and the price of Ampco 18 was more then the customer wanted to pay. We needed to put on 3/8" material because the galls were so deep.

Makes me wonder if something like durabar could be stuck in there, bedded with epoxy and held in with brass screws.

re; the nylon and uhmw, youtube user factorydragon87 used some on a big-ish STANKO milling machine. #50 taper spindle, so a fair amount of iron. Lots of videos of it with charming broken english, and he's quick to reply to any questions in the comments.

Richard King · Dec 14, 2016

I have added Iron inserts in long scores when you can save the original ways but when the ways are 100% scores for feet in big machines, they need to be planned off so you get to virgin iron. Then you need to put on the wear plates to bring the parts back to the original height so the screws and shafts line up. Nylatron was a whole lot cheaper then bronze or Iron. Plus it was self lubricating and with oil it didn't wear.

RC99 · Dec 14, 2016

[486] said:
Makes me wonder if something like durabar could be stuck in there, bedded with epoxy and held in with brass screws.

I used cast iron inserts to repair my milling machine

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...-jafo-jarocin-mill-repair-20160409_130028.jpg

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...-jafo-jarocin-mill-repair-20160418_180536.jpg

DavidScott · Dec 14, 2016

I have been told that you can glue to UHMW if you burn the surface of the plastic with a torch first. If you can get anything to stick to that you can glue nylon. Keep in mind that nylon 6 absorbs around half the moisture of nylon 66. Unless you are going to have it sitting in coolant I doubt moisture absorption will be an issue.

DMF_TomB · Dec 15, 2016

plastics have a difference expansion rate with temperature changes with metal.
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adhesives only hold if they can flex a bit and if they get brittle with age sudden bond failure can occur. curling of material trying to expand of bimetalic bending is common. turcite tends to stay flexible for decades where other plastics often get brittle with age
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as apprentice i once used hot melt glue on steel to aluminum. machined my part and since slightly warm i take to the sink and pour cold water on it. glue bond failed in about one second. what formerly appeared good and strong bond failed with just a temperature change and no warning

Richard King · Dec 15, 2016

Another cheap but good material is Grade Linen Phenolic. I have been using it for years, my Dad used it back in the 60's. It works great and sticks good with epoxy. You can also buy it in different thickness. You can also screw it on with brass screws too. Be sure to say grade linen. Phenolic Sheet | Phenolic Rod | Plastic Laminate

georgef50 · Jan 24, 2018

Mr. King,

Would you consider Grade Linen Phenolic for Blanchard chuck ways or use Rulon or Turcite? I am reconditioning an OLD 30" Blanchard, and I plan to put a max rated load on the chuck. This is my first post, so forgive any protocol transgressions.

Richard King · Jan 25, 2018

Bourn & Koch the company that manufactures and remanufactures Blanchards now uses Turcite B or Rulon 142 (see below). I have used Nylatron,Phenolic and Rulon on the ones I have down. You could use Grade Linin Phenolic epoxed on and countersunk flat head brass screws as long as you use at least 1/8" minimum thickness. Would need to sweat out the oil as that cast iron will be soaked with oil. Also you need to check the rack pinion bearing and I suspect the bottom base ways are concave and the saddle ways are convex. The rectangular gib and hold down clamp cover bar will be screwed up too. When those machines screw up they really are bad. Most shops do poor maintenance on them. A rebuilders dream come true...LOL just kidding..lol

You should machine off bottom or mag chuck if its sored too, then the Turcite will need to be scraped. Give me a call and we can talk about it. You can also pull the saddle and send it to B&K and they can rebuild it for you.

Pic's Taken at Bourn and Koch when I taught a class there. Turcite inside the saddle. Class pictures at B& K.

Also I am teaching another class at B&K in March week 11. I will be teaching a class in Texas in a few weeks too.

Both are talked about in his forum. scroll through the threads.

SeaMoss · Jan 25, 2018

I thought nylon liked to cold-flow ? No ?

Richard King · Jan 25, 2018

SeaMoss said:
I thought nylon liked to cold-flow ? No ?

Nylatron is a Graphite filled and I have never had issue's using it. In my business, "no news is good news"

The chuck sits in a bath of oil and you cut oil grooves in it so as the chuck turns the oil flows in and under the ways. Also the last pass of the hand scrapng is deeper and the bottom of the mag chuck is 1/2 moon flaked. Much like a flat Babbitt bearing you taper the leading edge of the bearing material so you create a "wedge of oil" that naturally flows under the way and material.

In order of desired materials I would say 1) Rulon 142 or Turcite B. 2) Grade Linen Phenolic epoxied, with brass counter sunk brass screws. Glued side etched or scratched up. 3) Nylatron is slippery on both sides so it needs to be acid etched on one side or scratched up and epoxied with several counter sunk screws.

Phenolic is probably the cheapest, then Nylatron then and Rulon. Moglice Inc / Devitt Machinery also does this repair using Moglice. I have never used Mogilce on a Blanchard.

PS: If you Google "Does Nylon or Nylatron "Cold Flow" it says no.
Hardinge thermal bounds white Nylon on the bottoms of their tool room lathes and chucker rebuilds. Have for years. I normally use Rulon.
Here take a look at this site as it has all sorts of engineering specs on all bearing materials. Plus you can contact their Engineering help desk for questions. Bearing Manufacturer | Bearing Distributor | TriStar Plastics Corp.

Can I use Nylon instead of Turcite?

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