Can You Learn To Scrape from a Book or a Forum or ?
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    Default Can You Learn To Scrape from a Book or a Forum or ?

    On my Facebook Page someone asked "what's better, learning to scrape from a book, DVD, Forum or from a mentor?"

    I shared my story of hearing students tell me at my scraping / rebuilding classes that they had read the Connelly Book, read the forums for years and trying to learn how. I wrote telling them that many of the internet forum members were self taught and never were paid to rebuild machinery and how some people on the forums can pretend to be an expert and show no proof they have been paid for years making a living rebuilding machinery. One of the readers on FB wrote how he was able to learn from my tutoring over the internet so it is possible. I believe I have helped several people over the years to scrape better on here plus taught several how to replace Turcite, so it is possible. I always say I can teach anyone to scrape if they are mechanically inclined. Over the years when I taught at Factories like GM, Cumins, Timken,dozens of new machine builders in the states, Europe, Asia of all my 30.000 plus students I have discovered most people can learn to scrape in 2 to 3 days with me standing behind them tutoring them. I am saying scraping, not be a full time Journeyman machine rebuilder, but you will be able to scrape a flat surface flat by hand or by a Biax Power scraper. On FB, Keith Rucker said this too. So if you would like to learn the basics of machine tool rebuilding I have 2 classes this summer in the states so you can learn how. I will also be teaching 3 weeks in October/Nov in Austria for BIAX Germany the manufacturer of the World Famous BIAX Power Scraper. I am also looking for folks to Host the 3 or 5 day seminars anywhere in the world. Hosts do not pay for the classes. You can see the Timken Reference on my Web Site Handscraping.com


    Practical Machinist Member Glen Bent said after a class something like this "I had tried to learn to scrape from the books, forums, other teachers, but until I took his class I couldn't figure it out. Learning from Richard is like trying to get a drink of water from a fire hose, because he teaches so much". Thank You Glen as that is one of the best references I have received. PM me for more details on the classes. I have separate posts on here about the August class I will be teaching at Bourn and Koch Machine Builders in Rockford IL and a Class in September in Clear Lake South Dakota. I am looking for folks on the East, SE and Northwest USA who would like to host a class. Rich

    PS: I can also teach you how to hand & Biax Power 1/2 moon oil flake in those 2 to 3 days.
    Last edited by Richard King; 07-07-2019 at 01:08 PM.

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    if you try to weld by books alone it normally takes far longer than learning from a expert welder who can show you how it is done and watch you weld, then tell you and or show you how to weld better. literally 10-100x faster working with a expert
    .
    its like having a 2000 page set of manuals on running a cnc. most guys try asking a more experienced person a question and get a answer often in less than a minute rather than spend many hours looking in 2000 pages of books. assuming the answer is even in the 2000 pages.
    .
    or would you go to a doctor who only learned from books ? and never learned or interned with or from other doctors ?? so in middle of a operation if there is a problem you want doctor to leave and go look something up in 5000 pages of medical books ?? maybe come back in a few hours

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    The question posed is interesting. I would broaden it to - 'Can you scrape from the information gleaned from books / online or are you best to attend a course with a professional ? The best or simplest method, least costly or most appropriate will more likely form the answer for each individual. So to keep it simple - I would agree, Yes ! - you can learn to scrape from the information available on line and in texts. I would even go so far as to say, you can learn in a more appropriate way to fit your needs - time, funds, space & kit.

    That being said, it is possible to learn 'bad habits' short cuts and possibly even the 'wrong way' if such a thing even exists.
    Its fair to say that if you have the resources, a teacher / mentor can certainly speed things up - as long as they are right for you. Nothing worse than a teaching style that just doesn't gel with you.

    The basics are simple and a couple of days can get you there - if you know what a sharp scraper edge feels like in the hand to work with, that can be an insight, the rest of it comes with practice / experience, as long as you take the time to understand where you made errors and note the things that worked for you.

    I have much to learn on machine rebuilding and while throwing money at training courses can certainly speed up results Im not sure it is always the best approach.
    The majority of what I have learned on scraping is based on the insights provided on these threads & videos I have watched on YouTube - the rest is from doing it and the occasional 'thick ear' provided by my mate Chris to focus my attention.

    Nothing quite like a mentor 'on tap' as long as its supportive. It is my view that learning is very specific to each individual, we all learn at different rates, what some can pick up in a few minutes others can take hours to manage. Scraping by hand ( I dont use a Biax)requires time for your muscles to get used to the action, eye & arms to work together - I have watched countless hours of handscraping and very little of it actually helped me do it - but thats different to understanding it.

    Mr King - sorry if this was a rhetorical question you posed - I didnt read it as such, so thought I might add some of my thoughts.
    <30,000 students world wide - wow thats some achievement 600 students a year for 50 years every year!

    All the best
    mat

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    30,000 students at $1000+ a go , I hope the IRS isn't reading this

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    I'm as far from a scraping expert as you can get, but I do develop all sorts of "processes" for a living. IMO, there's a lot more to scraping than the obvious. If you already have a background that includes the finer points of kinematics and material flexure, flatness measurement, machine design, lubrication, cleanliness and various other things, you can probably figure out how to scrape from books and other sources. You still won't know how to rebuild a machine properly unless you've already been doing that, and no doubt your techniques won't be efficient or optimal. OTOH, the journey will be interesting. ��

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    In the beginning I used to rotate students in and out of classes . At Seneca Falls USA Army Depot in Romulus Depot I might do 50 a week as they only wanted their people to learn to Power Scrape to 20 PPI. At GM we experimented with numbers too up to 20 and for them 8 was the best. When I lectured for the SME (Society of Manufacturing Engineers) and at PMC (Precision Machinery Research Center in Taiwan) I would lecture groups of 100 several times. I stopped counting at 20,000 as we had certificate numbers...then the last 10 years or so since I started doing hobbyists I have began to give certificates as it is a prize for the students. I get a kick out of some people who are jealous because I have slighted them in some way get upset. Poor Babies. I have taught people to hand scrape over the internet as proof is in the sticky's about look at the Studer posts created by Ballen in Germany. Pete in England is also proof I and others who helped taught him how. Take a look at the link below and read # 19 that says it all Rich King's scraping/machine rebuilding class (Picture Heavy)


    I have proof that I can teach a person to scrape in 2 to 3 days, just ask my students who read PM and They spent 3 days learning how to rebuild machines in 3 days with me standing behind them. Look at You Tube and Facebook and see my students teaching what I taught them. I also have given the class to some for free. I call it a Hardship application. The crack about the IRS... I have had a CPA do my taxes for my whole career and I pay more then enough taxes. I now write on my own forum on face-book and I can control who writes on there. No more stupid self centered want to be pretenders giving advice when they are fakes, but on forums they can cut and paste or write what pro's have written or said making themselves look like they are experts to someone who has no clue about scraping. Photo's of my class room in Taiwan where I taught close to 2000 over a 2 years of 1 week classes and lectures to tech, Engineers, new machine company owners. The one newspaper picture is I am teaching a class to several president of companies. also you can read and click on the facebook link and scroll to the end where they interview me on Taiwan TV. The instructor on the PMC link is Ted and I taught Ted, I bet he has taught over 5000 students in the 10 years since I stopped going there. My students no matter where have pledged to me to pass on my knowledge. I expect That. No more lost art. ?????? <----- link to Scraping.pmc.org.tw
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails rich.tamiaward.1.jpg   rich.news.1.jpg   1.scraping9464.jpg   tami-award-2.jpg   tami-award.jpg  

    Last edited by Richard King; 07-12-2019 at 01:43 PM.

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    In my experience the short answer is "yes", but the long answer is "kinda".. I learned from books and a very good video that Mr. King put out a few years back when he was associated with dapra. ( Are they still available ? ) In my experience there is no substitute for for "hands on" experience with adult ( read professional ) experience. Shore does shorten the learning curve by a long shot. Also many kudos's to Archie Cheda as he was my main mentor.
    Stay safe
    Calvin B
    PS many thanks to you Mr. King. I have a relatively new Taiwanese knee mill that was hand scraped and is surprisingly accurate. I've always wondered if one of your Taiwanese students had something to do with it..

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    You can feel you have a handle on anything ..but nothing beats working under/with a master/mentor in any subject.

    I could teach more in a week about grinding than you could get from reading all the books on grinding..and I am just an OK to good grinder hand...not a master.

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    Why start this thread or post this?
    Of course it is better to have someone who can rap your knuckles with a ruler, watch over your moves and show you why in real time.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by calvin b View Post
    In my experience the short answer is "yes", but the long answer is "kinda".. I learned from books and a very good video that Mr. King put out a few years back when he was associated with dapra. ( Are they still available ? ) In my experience there is no substitute for for "hands on" experience with adult ( read professional ) experience. Shore does shorten the learning curve by a long shot. Also many kudos's to Archie Cheda as he was my main mentor.
    Stay safe
    Calvin B
    PS many thanks to you Mr. King. I have a relatively new Taiwanese knee mill that was hand scraped and is surprisingly accurate. I've always wondered if one of your Taiwanese students had something to do with it..
    Yes I still sell them on and off Ebay, I am now sell HSB sticks too. I still work with DAPRA and they advertise my classes on their website and now I go to Germany and Austria and teach for BIAX directly. :-)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20160703_144737-1-.jpg  

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    I started it to breath some new life in the forum. It was getting boring. :-)

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    I took Richard's class in Springfield VT in May '19, and I learned a tremendous amount not only from Richard, and not only about scraping, but from all of the conversations that came up between Richard and individual students about many projects and topics, and from conversations among students (both conversations that I was a direct part of, and just listening all around me). No book, video, or website can offer that sort of interactive wide-ranging immersion. I wish that there were similar opportunities for equally content-rich (and enjoyable) 5-day immersion in other sub-categories of the broader portfolio of machine tool and metal skills (in some places, there might be night classes, but none that I have ever been able to find anywhere near the rural area where I live).

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    Who taught Sir Joseph Whitworth?

    I agree with Conrad and Lurk. It depends entirely upon the individual and the goal.

    Some people are incapable of learning from a book. Some people can read a book much faster than any person can speak.

    Some people have a very high level of manual dexterity. Others are the exact opposite.

    Some people know a lot about a little and others a little about a lot.

    All of those have a very strong bearing on how fast someone can acquire a new skill.

    I did some small scraping jobs 25 years ago with nothing for guidance but a few pages Lindsay Publications had reprinted from an old textbook. I didn't encounter any significant problems. But I'd already learned to flat file and spot work on a surface plate. So the only change was the tactile sensation and the degree of accuracy attainable.

    Not having done it in that long, I assume that I'll spend 4-8 hours regaining a feel for the scraping process. That's been my experience with doing bench work with a file, trowel trade work or anything else which depends upon manual dexterity. So if I have a small job I'll sometimes do it at the bench with a file rather than set up and use a mill just to maintain my skills.

    If I am in practice with a file I can hold a thou or so without any problems. And in a lot of cases do it faster than I can set up the mill.

    I can blow through a 2000 page programming manual in a couple of days.

    In short, there is no single answer. It depends.

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    If only there was someone teaching scraping classes...

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    I thought you wanted to retire and not want to do these classes anymore.
    Can't help yourself? A need to pass on to others?
    You are so welcome here anytime a group can be put together.
    I am not Buick City which I have seen you visited and played in, I would be a piss pore tiny struggling shop with a handful of plates/benches and all the shit you know is ... better.....
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by kustomizingkid View Post
    If only there was someone teaching scraping classes...
    Nah. Scheduling time-away, travel & lodging costs, toting heavy gear about, finding a suitable venue, then also the course fees? Innkeepers and gasoline stations are making the bulk of the money.

    Writing a better book would reach more folks, sooner, and let 'em "self start" on their own time and schedule.

    Maybe Alex will do a new series of DVD?

    Or are we in the middle of a market-survey for exactly that?

    'Fess up Rich. You've got word-processing at your fishing cabin, yah?


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    Yesterday I booted a pretender from my facebook site as if he was some kind of expert with a fake name on there. I suspected something was up when a person joins a site with a made up a BS name. Since them I deleted all his crap he wrote. He pretended to be someone wanting to learn to rebuild and wrote a ton of crap or should I say he cut and pasted a bunch of good info saying he was doing some research. LOL I have some rules on my site, no pretenders allowed. Since then I have also got 15 more real people...lol and have heard from several members who said he was a phoney and are glad he is gone.

    Reminds me of the guy we had on here 5 years ago who claimed he had just scraped his milling machine and started to give advice that the real pro's and experienced scrapers figured out he was a BS'er ruse. Robert George talked with him on the phone and he told Robert he had scraped one mill in his life, a Rung-fo. All talk and no proven experience. That's laughable and a shame as most people who know nothing will read his BS and figure he is for real.

    As far as retirement I have slowed down considerably and still get asked to teach classes. My accountant told me as long as I am healthy I should keep doing them, more in the kitty if I get hurt or something. I have cut back on here and am not falling for the BS anymore that is fishing for me to argue. Life is so much more relaxing helping on my site I can control :-) . I have also started to rebuild machines again. I am at my cabin and have caught and released 10 keeper Walleyes this week. 2 weeks ago I repaired a gib on a Johns & Shipman special Tread Mill for a company 20 minutes from my cabin and will do some Leblond lathe rebuilding later this summer as they are so busy and the machine is running so so now, producing tapered parts. They are a good company who does preventative machine rebuilding when a machine isn't shot. So I have the best of both worlds. I appreciate the compliments from my students and others who know I am not some rookie pretending to be an expert.

    I have several of my students prepared to be able to teach if by chance I drop dead tomorrow. Warren Jones in VT who is now helping Don Shaddock scrape gear machines, Paolo who is in MD and writes here, Keith Rucker down in GA, doing his museum machines and doing you tube shows, Jan in Norway and Stefan in Germany who have a ton of good shows rebuilding you tube shows, The Luftinger brothers over in Austria and used to write here (Maschratur), etc. Most have decided PM is not a good place to read and write anymore, so if that happens the pretenders will probably take over PM. As soon as it cools off I am going to prepare my pole barn shop at home, so I can teach classes there and not have to travel all over.

    Bob email me again and lets talk. Probably next spring as the CA guys in the Bay Area want me to come out in February, also shops in Utah and Florida are writing. Next month I'm headed to Rockford again, Then have a small group in South Dakota in September, then start rebuilding up here this fall and get in some fall Muskie fishing. Only 3 hour drive from home too...I can batch it up here with Buzz, Cocoa, Bell, Izzy and Sweetie my guard dogs while the wife has her guard dogs Buster and Sugar back home. Life is good.....:-)

    PS: Alex just passed his MN Realtor's exams so he can sell homes he had been photo and drone shooting as he is a really fine Photographer and is becoming an entrepreneur. He is on Face book and You tube, making wood games he sells on the net plus raising bee's, one of our hobbies we did when he was a kid. He is my back up helper / assistant teacher too. Alex King Studios – Minnesota Based Photographer He is a licensed drone pilot too who loves to fish too, a chip off the old block. YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    Yesterday I booted.....
    ....
    a chip off the old block.
    So the SHORT answer is you are still having too much fun with what? "dietetic reduced calorie" bun-fights to have time to write a book?



    I think you should write the book. BEFORE you die, not after, even.

    I'll even buy one if the price is not silly-outrageous.

    And Alex has edited-out the ... well.. you know... "distractions from the actual craft"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    Yesterday I booted a pretender from my facebook site as if he was some kind of expert with a fake name on there. I suspected something was up when a person joins a site with a made up a name like most normal people do. Since them I deleted all his posts that didnt align with my own view. He pretended to be someone wanting to learn to rebuild and wrote a ton of stuff, or should I say he cut and pasted a bunch of good info saying he was doing some research, at least thats what fits my narrative so it must be true. LOL! I have some rules on my site, no opinions other than my own allowed. Since then I have also got 15 more suc,,, students ripe for the picking...lol and have heard from several members who said he was a phoney and that I am........ :-)

    Reminds me of the guy we had on here 5 years ago whod just scraped his milling machine and started to give advice that that might have been of promoted some decent discussion for the forum, but he hasnt taken a class so theres the door buddy! Robert George talked with the peasant on the phone and he told Robert he had scraped one mill in his life, a bit like the students who I ask to guide this forum. That's laughable and a shame but business is business.

    As far as retirement I have slowed down considerably and still get asked to teach classes. My accountant told me as long as I am healthy I should keep doing them because as I said in my interview medical insurance dint come cheap these days :-). I have cut back on here as ive found it increasingly difficult to bait people into arguments, as this thread clearly demonstrates. Life is so much more relaxing on my site where I can control and dictate the conversation :-). I have also started to rebuild machines again. This week I am at my cabin and have caught and released 10 keeper Walleyes (fish, not students, a lifetimes servitude for them!). 2 weeks ago I repaired a gib on a Johns & Shipman special Tread Mill for a company 20 minutes from my cabin and hopefully will do some Leblond lathe rebuilding later this summer, as they are so busy and the machine is running so so now, at least thats what they said, im thinking they might have caught wind of how I conduct myself on this forum. That said, they are a good company who does preventative machine rebuilding when a machine isn't shot. So there you have it, ive the best of both of the only two worlds worth talking about, scraping, and teaching the one true pro king way of scraping. I appreciate the compliments from my students and others who know I am the one true expert, the Alpha, the Omega, that one that everyone is jealous of! :-)

    I have several of my students prepared to be able to teach if by chance I drop dead tomorrow as theyve done a class. Warren Jones in VT who is now helping Don Shaddock scrape gear machines, Paolo who is in MD and writes here, Keith Rucker down in GA, doing his museum machines and doing you tube shows, Jan in Norway and Stefan in Germany who have a ton of good shows rebuilding you tube shows, The Luftinger brothers over in Austria and used to write here (Maschratur), etc. Along with other pros and non pros, most have decided PM is not a good place to read and write anymore for fear of incurring my wrath, but all greatness has its price ;-). As soon as it cools off and the next ban rolls in, I am going to prepare my pole barn shop at home, so I can teach classes there and not have to travel all over.

    Bob email me again, I need a location for another class so lets talk. Probably next spring as the CA guys in the Bay Area want me to come out in February, also shops in Utah, Florida and the far side of Mars are writing, well, why wouldnt they!!? Next month I'm headed to Rockford again, then have a small group in South Dakota in September, then start rebuilding up here this fall and get in some fall Muskie fishing. Only 3 hour drive from home too...I can batch it up here with Buzz, Cocoa, Bell, Izzy and Sweetie my guard dogs while the wife has her guard dogs Buster and Sugar back home. Life is good.....:-)

    PS: Alex just passed his MN Realtor's exams so he can sell homes he had been photo and drone shooting as he is a really fine Photographer and is becoming an entrepreneur. He is on Face book and You tube, making wood games he sells on the net plus raising bee's, one of our hobbies we did when he was a kid. He is my back up helper / assistant teacher / and smart enough to not wanna do this this shit for a living. Alex King Studios – Minnesota Based Photographer He is a licensed drone pilot so can film all your straight edge scraping from the air :-). He loves to fish, a chip off the old block, humble too, dunno where he got that from :-) YouTube
    Well said Rich

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    Demon Thank you for making my point with your notes. A fellow in Bristol today on Facebook, said he was thinking of organizing a class. Demon I wasn't talking about you....you have an open mind and don't try to BS your way through rebuilding. I am sure you know who I mean and this particular one I am thinking about does not live in the UK...


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