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Deckel FP2 Y-axis slide -- what is the right order to scrape?

ballen

Diamond
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
Location
Garbsen, Germany
This is a question for Stefan and Franz (who I know have done many of these machines) and for Richard, who probably has also:

What's the correct order to scrape the geometry on the Y-axis slide of a Deckel FP2?

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Is it the following? Or is there a simpler and more direct way?

- scrape 1 and 2 in a plane parallel to the horizontal spindle axis

- scrape 3 (non gib side) in a plane parallel to the horizontal spindle axis

- scrape 4 to a plane, so it maintains constant distance from 2/3 with dowel pins or Kingway gauge

- scrape 5 and 6 in a plane perpendicular to the Z slide direction

- scrape 8 in a plane to match 3, which intersects plane 6 in a line perpendicular to X and Z

- insert gib into 7 and scrape to fit 4

Cheers,
Bruce
 
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If I recall correctly there’s no way to adjust the gear mesh in y axis slide. Are you planning to turcite one surface to compensate? And I’m also interested in what the experts say about scraping order.

L7
 
First of all finish the slide itself. Ways perpendicular and parallel with spindle.
Later on finish 5 and 6, blued up with your slide. But you wanna have this way rising towards Z axis, because of weight of the vertical milling attachment and also future wear. Relieve middle for sure.
Once that is finshed scrape number 7 perpendicular to x-axis or even a bit shy, it will wear more towards z-axis due to dirt. Once all that is finished just do the gib (8).
Gears might have do be remachined.
Just one way doing it, there might be lots of others.
Cheers
 
There's enough "air" in the gearing that I can scrape it. If not, Franz Singer has some gears (the smaller one which goes in the Y slide) which he has ground down slightly. The Y-axis leadscrew is also easily moved if necessary.
 
Bruce.....remember to be a "detective" so you can see how the factory scraped it, so you can follow what they did. Measure the "unworn" areas. Make a drawing and write down what was and what is worn. I was researching it online and found this in another thread you wrote. It will help the readers to understand whats going on. Meine "Werkstattgeschichten" - Seite 9 - Zerspanungsbude I will let the Brothers take charge as I have only seen Deckels when I was teaching in Europe. They are not so popular up here in Minnesota. Mcfarmer is right on about the sag factor. From the photo's it looks as if the work spindles can be scraped adjustable to get alignment. If they were fixed you would have to work off off the spindle axis because there is no way to rescrape them. If I were you look for unworn surfaces and as I said follow the original scraping and alignments. There is another fellow / student in Norway Edvind Wold. He was an amazing scraper (like you Bruce) in the class who has rebuilt his Deckels...I just emailed everyone, copying everyone. (Bruce, The Brothers and Edvind) Good luck, Rich
 
What's the correct order to scrape the geometry on the Y-axis slide of a Deckel FP2?

- scrape 1 and 2 in a plane parallel to the horizontal spindle axisBruce
start with the flats1, 2 scrape them flat and parallel to the horizontal spindle as you wrote. But also check the twist.
You can carry out all of the measurements on your measuring plate.
Place the slide with the surfaces facing up on 3 points (2 in front, the third in the middle between the surfaces where the vertical milling head is mounted)

I woud scrape them also parallel across the width, so the way's 5,6 can be scraped with a surfaceplate and only the dovetails needs match fit scraping.

- scrape 3 (non gib side) in a plane parallel to the horizontal spindle axis
Bruce
yes

- scrape 4 to a plane, so it maintains constant distance from 2/3 with dowel pins or Kingway gauge
Bruce
yes, scrape the dovetail surface measured parallel to the dowel pins, exactly to zero or a little narrower at the back

he next answers will follow tomorrow, i'm tired and have to go to bed:)

greetings, Franz
 
Hi Franz,

This is very helpful, thank you very much!

The next answers will follow tomorrow, i'm tired and have to go to bed:)T

I know you are very busy now, and appreciate your answering. I'm going to finish the painting of the machine, and a set of careful measurements, before I do any scraping.

What you say for scraping 1-4 makes sense. If I do it upside down on a surface plate it should go pretty fast. Should 1/2 be scraped so that the horizontal spindle points a little bit up at the nose? Have you ever had problems ever with reduced clearance(Luft) between the Spindlebock gear and the long gear underneath?

Cheers,
Bruce


PS: Richard, I'm doing exactly what you suggest, mapping out everything before picking up the scraper. And yes, Banana Joe's FP2 thread in Zerpannungsbude is impressive. He did the entire tear down and rebuild in about a month.
 
Remember the table with T - Slots is work hardened and if your not going to have it ground I would suggest you scrape the table top to break up the stress prior to doing the bottom. I love seeing one be a detective when rebuilding. Love when Franz tells people to use 3 points another lost art.

Pic's L to R. The brothers, Fillip from BIAX and I, Stefan explaining 3 points on a VMC column, Ballen and Franz discussing scraping a SE and Stefan standing in front of their Deckel that they rebuilt.


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so now is the time to continue,

- scrape 5 and 6 in a plane perpendicular to the Z slide direction
scrape 5,6 with a Surface Plate as i mentioned above and check the twist from time to time.
For the perpendicularity from Y to Z, scrape the back approx. 10-15 microns (4-6 tenths) lower. There is no perfect value, it depends on which head is used.
Lower the middle a little bit.

- scrape 8 in a plane to match 3, which intersects plane 6 in a line perpendicular to X and Z
I think you have a little mistake, the 8 is the side where the gib sits.
scrape 7 flat with a Straight edge an check the match fit of the dovetail angle with the slide from time to time
be careful not to lose the original direction (perpendicularity from Y to X), check the angle with the slide

- scrape 8
scrape 8 flat with a Straight edge an check the match fit of the dovetail angle with the slide from time to time
sure, there is no wear, but I would be surprised if the surface would fit perfectly

- insert gib into 7 and scrape to fit 4
scrape the gib to fit like you did in our class on your Studer slide

I know you are very busy now, and appreciate your answering. I'm going to finish the painting of the machine, and a set of careful measurements, before I do any scraping.
do you rebuild the whole machine or just the Y?


Should 1/2 be scraped so that the horizontal spindle points a little bit up at the nose?
not necessarily, it just shouldn't point down.
The original tolerance is 0,02 / 300mm (8 tenths / 12")

Have you ever had problems ever with reduced clearance(Luft) between the Spindlebock gear and the long gear underneath?
only once on a FP2 that was very badly worn. According to the wear pattern on your photos, you won't have any problems (unless the Y has already been rebuild bevor)


greetings, Franz
 
I always tell students to check the side where the back of the gib rests to be sure it's not high in the middle or dinged up (burr) on the ends. I don't recall if I showed you to blue up the side where the front of the gib rides against with the side where the back of the gib rests against as this assures the angle between them is the same. no more then 5 to 10 PPI and up to 80% coverage is OK. You will have to swivel or turn it so it blues up after you first checked it with a SE to be sure it's not high in the middle..Then relieve the center of the gib when scraping it, because as it wears it wears flat because the dirt gets in on the ends first. Rich
 








 
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