What's new
What's new

Fadal Head Rebuild questions

Duc

Aluminum
Joined
Aug 20, 2013
Location
ABQ, NM
Looking for some advise or a company to send the part.

Few months ago I purchased a Fadal 4020 for the home garage from a manufacturing plant for about 6k. Not a lot invested in the machine but plan on keeping it for some time. Machine will hit the tolerances required for the Aluminum parts I make on the side but steel is a no go due to vibrations from head. Placing a travel indicator on the head during machining of A36 steel with a .75 end mill (.100 DOC .375 WOC 20IPM) resulted in .005 of movement. This was only a quick dirty measurement with a magnetic indicator place on the tool changer cover and angled to hit the drawbar bridge.

The bad:
Turcite is sliding out from the way wipers and a few pieces are suctioned to the ways.
Thrust bearing bad?
Gibs need adjusting.

Depending on cost, I'm trying to plan ahead if I will be taking on the project or sending out the turcite rebuild to a outside company. I believe the head will fit under the Fadal 6030 at work since it has the extended Z option. Table way rebuild sounds a lot easier with the equipment I have versus the head.


Any suggestions on a companies to send the head to for new turcite?
 
To do the turcite correctly, it should be fitted to the column. You can chip the old stuff off, glue the new stuff on, and rough machine it if necessary. But, to get the best bearing, alignment, and gib fit, you will need to scrap the turcite to match the column.

If you are on a tight budget, it's possible to do the job yourself. It's a lot of work. Also, turcite is expensive. You don't want to do it twice.

I guess you could send out the whole column, but getting that thing back on and aligned is a whole other kettle of fish.
 
Being that the turcite is broken loose on the head, is the head lube system working?

I ask because if the lube oil system has not been working for awhile, there is a good chance that the gib surfaces and the back side of the column might be scored which will added even more to the repair problem.
 
I did a Kitamura head for a guy a couple of years ago without dismantling the column off the base so it can be done. and re-assembled the machine after I applied and scraped the new Turcite. The customer did most of the work and cleaning before I arrived. It sounds as if you have an overhead host or forklift to pull the head right? Email me and I give you a quote. If the headstock turcite is bad I suspect the table and saddle is too. I could teach you to scrape Turcite too. [email protected]

I can give you references too. I taught another company how to rebuild their Fadal ways a few years ago too. Who has since rebuilt 2 more all by themselves.
 
I did a Kitamura head for a guy a couple of years ago without dismantling the column off the base so it can be done. and re-assembled the machine after I applied and scraped the new Turcite. The customer did most of the work and cleaning before I arrived. It sounds as if you have an overhead host or forklift to pull the head right? Email me and I give you a quote. If the headstock turcite is bad I suspect the table and saddle is too. I could teach you to scrape Turcite too. [email protected]

I can give you references too. I taught another company how to rebuild their Fadal ways a few years ago too. Who has since rebuilt 2 more all by themselves.

I will send over a email tomorrow. Maybe I can afford the cost or I wonder if I could convince work that this is training. I do have a 4k forklift and AC in the shop or heat.

Took deeper look at the mill tonight along with some pictures for people.

-Head moves side to side by ~.007-.009 when pull with some force at the spindle area. I was outside of the mill while pulling so the table wasn't shifting.

-Head ways varied less than .001 from side to side using a intrepid tenths indicator. Not perfect smooth but no deep score lines.

-Plenty of oil on both ways

-Looks like I will be replacing all thrust bearing on the mill in the near future. Y sprung moved .002 once I changed directions.
 

Attachments

  • 20180818_202150.jpg
    20180818_202150.jpg
    55.8 KB · Views: 282
  • 20180818_202213.jpg
    20180818_202213.jpg
    62 KB · Views: 333
  • 20180818_203026.jpg
    20180818_203026.jpg
    52.2 KB · Views: 306
  • 20180818_202955.jpg
    20180818_202955.jpg
    78.6 KB · Views: 273
  • 20180818_200704.jpg
    20180818_200704.jpg
    94.2 KB · Views: 341
And the turcite loose on the bottom of the head.

Also discovered the tooling I received after my grandfather passed still has the receipt in the box from 1968. Wish indicators still cost $22.65.
 

Attachments

  • 20180818_200353.jpg
    20180818_200353.jpg
    66.4 KB · Views: 209
  • 20180818_202251.jpg
    20180818_202251.jpg
    52.3 KB · Views: 223
Looks to me like you have a lack of lube oil problem at least on the one side. Either a plugged metering valve or a broken line.

I wouldn't be to quick to replace the thrust bearings until you can actually prove that they are a problem. You need to put a dial indicator on the end of the ball screw and monitor the motion.

It is more likely that the ball nut is worn than the thrust bearings though those could also be a problem.

It appears that most of your problems on the head are all related to the worn turcite and loose gibs.
 
You would need to mic the box ways. depending on those figures you will have to decide if you can leave the box ways alone and only replace the turcite. The ways look bad and the machine is filthy Looks like a home made wiper in the one picture. You would have to realize the way ground ways would still look the same if we didn't remove the column. You need to pull off the way covers on X & Y and take a look. The X & Y will be dirty and wipers worn and the Turcite is bound to be bad there too.

Be a detective and measure and write the spec with a magic marker then take pictures.
 
Looks to me like you have a lack of lube oil problem at least on the one side. Either a plugged metering valve or a broken line.

I wouldn't be to quick to replace the thrust bearings until you can actually prove that they are a problem. You need to put a dial indicator on the end of the ball screw and monitor the motion.

It is more likely that the ball nut is worn than the thrust bearings though those could also be a problem.

It appears that most of your problems on the head are all related to the worn turcite and loose gibs.

Should have time this weekend to pull all the way covers to take a few measurements on the ball screws. Finishing up my buddy's sub plate for his Fadal 2216. At least the machine isn't my day job and more of a expensive hobby.

You would need to mic the box ways. depending on those figures you will have to decide if you can leave the box ways alone and only replace the turcite. The ways look bad and the machine is filthy Looks like a home made wiper in the one picture. You would have to realize the way ground ways would still look the same if we didn't remove the column. You need to pull off the way covers on X & Y and take a look. The X & Y will be dirty and wipers worn and the Turcite is bound to be bad there too.

Be a detective and measure and write the spec with a magic marker then take pictures.

How would you suggest mic the ways? Overall thickness at different locations using a 1-2" mic gauge?

Not sure I would go to the level of grinding the ways. Fadals are dime a dozen for 10-15k in better shape. Might be worth fixing to a point then making enough cash to purchase a better one. The machine required a massive cleaning when I purchased the unit. I sure hope they clean the newer Mazak they purchased.

Should have more pictures of the other areas this week.
 
measure all the ways, measuring the top and rear where the hold downs go. Measure with a Mic, no gage block os needed. You can measure every 3 or 4 inches to get a handle on how bad it is. Also measure the positive and gib side of the ways. If it is a lot you are right it might be better to make a part machine. If the ways are not ground you could replace the Turcite and use it.. It will be 100% better then what you have now but not rebuilt.

Think of all the machines out there that are worn and they still are running and making parts. You could call it a reconditioning and not rebuilding. I have some idea's and will email you and decide what to do. Rich
 
Duc and I spoke on the phone yesterday and he is going to clean the machine up a bit more and measure the box ways and post pictures here. The machine is still assembled. He is deciding on having me come down and repair the head turcite with his help, do it himself after he makes some money or do it himself as a project during the January Keith Rucker class down in Tipton GA. He could bring the head and we could make it his project. I told him we should wait to to show how until we do it. :-)
 
Had something typed up then forgot to submit before closing.

Thank you for the info yesterday. I tried to swing the visit with the wife but she was having none of that but still working on the class in GA. She knows I enjoy fixing the machines more than running production since I get bored once I've improved the machining program. Now this all changes if I get a bonus at work at end of year.

I've started to price the tooling needed for the job after find the thread about rebuilding the head. Figure I have a few weeks of machining during free time at work and to break the cost to below my weekly spending limit for garage.

Is a cat40 test bar required for checking accuracy? Looking for one used to cut cost down.

CAT 4 Test Arbor 4MM X 25MM MariTool

Steel bars ~$200
Turcite ~$300
way wipers ~
Paint~
what ever else is broke
 
Took today off to poke around the mill. Ordered a piece of 1.5" x 4"x36" piece of 1018 steel to cut in half for the gluing of turcite down.

Y axis
Some wear on the ways but no turcite visible at this time. Also homemade wipers on it.
Y axis thrust bearing = .0005 movement

X axis
Wear near the very end due to way cover rubbing I think.
X axis thrust bearing = .0005 movement

Z axis
Used some ducting tape ,silver colored. Doubled up to be about .010 thick, to see how much of the turcite was gone done the right side of the head. Was able to slide ~16 inches total in. I'm guessing there is nothing left on this side. Cutting sound wise it does make sense. The mill has a bad vibration sound when cutting -Y to +Y on the left side of a plate and it quiet when on the right side of plate going +y to -Y.

Left side I can still see attached turcite on the head.

A lot of chips on top of the z area.

Z axis thrust bearing = .0005 movement



Paced around the shop trying to decide what to do. No desire to run it more to avoid additional damage to the Z ways. If I was a production shop this would have been scrapped at this point but I have a engineer job during the day and this thing is my stress relieve from the hectic day job. Also wish it was a linear way machine a tad bit.

A question
Can I restore the Z good enough for a home shop and hold +/- .003 while not vibrating to the point of damaging end mills?

I believe so. And learn a new skill set that I can refine over time and apply to the next mill I purchase that's in better shape. But Im also not an expert or a novice at this point.



Tomorrow I may start pulling the head off the mill to see what is all wrong. On a good note: adding a bypass switch to vacuum switch for the propane regulator makes starting my forklift so much easier. Press switch for 3 seconds then start and away you go.
 

Attachments

  • 20180824_140830.jpg
    20180824_140830.jpg
    61.8 KB · Views: 176
Looks like you have a questionable heads up don't you? LOL This may seem hard to do, but as my Dad used to say "It's duck soup" meaning simple...not sure why the saying means that....but ..lol

I am watching Martian on TV tonight. Even though it's fiction and scary, your project is real and a whole lot easier to get back to "fixed" then he has to travel back to earth. Plus a lot less guess work. Better buy some leather or rubber work gloves, a bucket, some Green Cleaner and mix up some super hot water and after you use a putty knife the deep crud off to clean it up spotless.

We can do this. If you consider how bad it is now and you can run it, just think how much better it will be after you replace the Turcite and scrape it. 100% better! Be sure the bars are straight and parallel to .001" and no bows or bends. Also plan on taping out the hold down holes and be prepared to do several dry runs without release agent or epoxy with all the C-Clamps and hold down bars. I wouldn't use those welding clamps as we did. They didn't work so hot. May have to talk on phone a few times too. This is fun.

OH be sure to look at the top Sticky on this forum and scan to where I talk about how to scrape. It is about square cut scraping Studer grinder ways. I can lend you the scraper and other tools and supplies. :-, I will see if I can run down the name of my host who did a class several years ago about an hours drive south of you too. Rich
 
Last edited:
Looks like you have a questionable heads up don't you? LOL This may seem hard to do, but as my Dad used to say "It's duck soup" meaning simple...not sure why the saying means that....but ..lol

I am watching Martian on TV tonight. Even though it's fiction and scary, your project is real and a whole lot easier to get back to "fixed" then he has to travel back to earth. Plus a lot less guess work. Better buy some leather or rubber work gloves, a bucket, some Green Cleaner and mix up some super hot water and after you use a putty knife the deep crud off to clean it up spotless.

We can do this. If you consider how bad it is now and you can run it, just think how much better it will be after you replace the Turcite and scrape it. 100% better! Be sure the bars are straight and parallel to .001" and no bows or bends. Also plan on taping out the hold down holes and be prepared to do several dry runs without release agent or epoxy with all the C-Clamps and hold down bars. I wouldn't use those welding clamps as we did. They didn't work so hot. May have to talk on phone a few times too. This is fun.

OH be sure to look at the top Sticky on this forum and scan to where I talk about how to scrape. It is about square cut scraping Studer grinder ways. I can lend you the scraper and other tools and supplies. :-, I will see if I can run down the name of my host who did a class several years ago about an hours drive south of you too. Rich


Well this was a fun weekend with some challenges. Lots of washing hands, gloves and paper towels. I grew up working on old crappy trucks but this one had a new level of grease and metal slivers to help add to the fun. I'm actually looking forward to the challenge and clean the dam head area up.

Since my forklift is being a pain in the ass again I had to use a different method for removing the head. A buddy had 2 spare Ibeams that I could use for a overhead crane setup. Northern tool had the trolley and chain hoist for $160 total and a few hours of my time to weld and install the setup in my roof. Without this setup Im not sure how I could have removed the spindle motor. I didn't get a picture of the rigging needed to remove the motor since there was no bolt holes on the top of the motor. I had to use a choke hold on the motor using a 2 ratched straps and some care. For reinstall we will be building a clamp with lifting hooks near the top of the motor.

As everyone can see in the pictures the whole head is covered in grease and metal slivers. I will be cleaning everything up and repainting everything.
 

Attachments

  • Head removed.jpg
    Head removed.jpg
    71.6 KB · Views: 262
  • Spindle motor removed.jpg
    Spindle motor removed.jpg
    78.2 KB · Views: 269
  • Crap.jpg
    Crap.jpg
    96.4 KB · Views: 245
  • overhead crane.jpg
    overhead crane.jpg
    65.3 KB · Views: 258
  • 20180824_205301.jpg
    20180824_205301.jpg
    71.6 KB · Views: 283
Right side way
Completely gone
Looks like only the main gets Turcite.

Left side way
Side way I was able to slide right off. Turcite mic'd to .032in 1.375x16
Main way is loose up top but still attached on 3/4 of it. Turcite mic'd to .048in by 3.48inx16in


I plan on cleaning the head with purple power since simple green did nothing to it.


Instead of clamping could I cut out a plate that covered the hole back and bolt it down to add pressure against the bars? Have access to a large waterjet at work and free metal.

I can clamp top and bottom of each bar but not in the middle due to head geometry.
 

Attachments

  • Head floor.jpg
    Head floor.jpg
    93.2 KB · Views: 278
  • Remaining turcite.jpg
    Remaining turcite.jpg
    91.3 KB · Views: 269
  • Gibs.jpg
    Gibs.jpg
    92.3 KB · Views: 909
I say in my lectures whats limiting you on rebuilds is your imagination. As far as the weight on the bars or huge plate you could use it as long as the plate is not twisted and parallel you could do it that way.

You said you have a Blanchard grinder. After you grind it flat lat it on a granite table and tap on it with a dead blow hammer and listen for a solid thud. One thing you don't want is a thick slow moving glue that will not flow out evenly. Be sure to buy the glue recommended. I buy Rulon 142 from Tri star plastics, Tstar.com
Materials Database | TriStar Plastics Corp.

Follow their instructions and I always mix more glue then I need, better safe then sorry.

Like I said before do several dry runs on your method before actually doing it. Buy some dry die release agent or some wax paper like I did for the Kitamura. Have to also leave room or space for the glue to flow into in corners. Or plan of gluing flats first and then glue the side ways a 2nd time. I also think as long as you have it apart, you should pull the table and saddle as they will be as filthy and I bet the Turcite is gone or loose. The slivers is why I said to use a leather glove and thick rubber gloves. (been there done that). Think about the oil that has absorbed into the porous cast iron. You should buy a case of brake cleaner or the fast dry electrical contact cleaner and with the head sitting vertically start to spray at top and keep spraying and wiping until the spray stays clear. Then before your almost ready to glue use a heat gun to cook out the oil.

Also start looking at replacing the lube tubes, metering units, etc. The gibs.... are they fiber? The machines I rebuilt had CI gibs with Turcite. OH besure to measure where the oil holes are so you can drill the glue out of them. Buy the Rulon so there is 1" extra on length as unless you have the headstock sitting perfectly level the Rulon will "creep unless you can block it in so it doesn't creep.


The brown side of the Rulon 142 (or Turcite B) is the side you glue. A trick I have always done is cut a small chunk of Rulon and pour water on each side, the dark side will wick in and the aqua side will shed the water.

Good Job so far :-) Thanks for sharing this with us. Rich

PS: Start looking for some Way Wipers from OEM or McMaster-Carr
 
Last edited:
I say in my lectures whats limiting you on rebuilds is your imagination. As far as the weight on the bars or huge plate you could use it as long as the plate is not twisted and parallel you could do it that way.

You said you have a Blanchard grinder. After you grind it flat lat it on a granite table and tap on it with a dead blow hammer and listen for a solid thud. One thing you don't want is a thick slow moving glue that will not flow out evenly. Be sure to buy the glue recommended. I buy Rulon 142 from Tri star plastics, Tstar.com
Materials Database | TriStar Plastics Corp.

Follow their instructions and I always mix more glue then I need, better safe then sorry.

Like I said before do several dry runs on your method before actually doing it. Buy some dry die release agent or some wax paper like I did for the Kitamura. Have to also leave room or space for the glue to flow into in corners. Or plan of gluing flats first and then glue the side ways a 2nd time. I also think as long as you have it apart, you should pull the table and saddle as they will be as filthy and I bet the Turcite is gone or loose. The slivers is why I said to use a leather glove and thick rubber gloves. (been there done that). Think about the oil that has absorbed into the porous cast iron. You should buy a case of brake cleaner or the fast dry electrical contact cleaner and with the head sitting vertically start to spray at top and keep spraying and wiping until the spray stays clear. Then before your almost ready to glue use a heat gun to cook out the oil.

Also start looking at replacing the lube tubes, metering units, etc. The gibs.... are they fiber? The machines I rebuilt had CI gibs with Turcite. OH besure to measure where the oil holes are so you can drill the glue out of them. Buy the Rulon so there is 1" extra on length as unless you have the headstock sitting perfectly level the Rulon will "creep unless you can block it in so it doesn't creep.


The brown side of the Rulon 142 (or Turcite B) is the side you glue. A trick I have always done is cut a small chunk of Rulon and pour water on each side, the dark side will wick in and the aqua side will shed the water.

Good Job so far :-) Thanks for sharing this with us. Rich

PS: Start looking for some Way Wipers from OEM or McMaster-Carr

The gibs are bronze on the head. Should look a lot better once I clean the pieces up.

Rulon 142 question.
Can I machine the oil groves into the rulon before I glue them down? Might be tough to cut the grooves in the end unless I set a router up at the perfect height and hand cut them in.

Also debating on buying the Rulon 142 from Tristar or FadalCNC

Tristar is $400 total since the pieces are only sound in 12in width by 24inches or fadalcnc is $200 for cut to size pieces. Probably going with Tristar since I would have extra to practice on.
 
I have always cut the oil grove in after with a sharp punch or steel tube. As I show in the photo's. I always figure no one is going to see them when I am done. I had never thought about milling them in before... sounds like that would work. On a vacuum chuck or using double faced tape. I have ground it on double face carpet tape. Just be sure not to cut through it. The Bronze gibs must have been made on some machines or they were made by an owner. That might be worth asking Fadal... Clean clean clean ...Just like washing dishes with a bucket and super HOT water. Oh did you put a rod through the counter weights? Rich

PS: What size Rulon do you need? I can check and see I have some extra.
 








 
Back
Top