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Fadal Rulon - give all the axes a little love.

twmcree

Aluminum
Joined
May 9, 2018
Location
Austin Texas
Progress report:

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Homemade scraper:

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So I took the table and saddle off the mill.

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Saddle:

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Table:

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The table really isn't that bad, there is some glue starting to peel near the turcite. There is also noticeable wear on one corner - one strap too tight?... Figure I might as well replace it while the process is set up.

Head:

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From what I have gathered, this is the current plan:

Utilize ground bars for each of the axes as an interface to apply pressure to the rulon.

For the mating process:

X-axis:
Have rulon machined flat with a flycutter, put in oil grooves, and then scrape/mate to saddle.
--
Y-axis:
Scrape/mate to bed.
--
Z-axis:
Scrape/mate to column. Due to the fact that the contact area is in a vertical orientation, it is crucial that the spindle is square to the column, from both directions.

This will be accomplished using a precision ground rod precisely mounted in a toolholder (or idealy, it will be a cat40 assembly) and a .0001 indicator.

The indicator will be mounted on a magnetic base and touching the bar parallel to the controller plane (y-z). As the head will be moved up and down, the reading will indicate the nature of the axial-y plane. Gibs will be adjusted until indicated measurement is within spec.

Next, the indicator will be touching the bar parallel to the column plane (x-z). " ...... "

Repeat.. etc.
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Is there anything that I am overlooking as far as my machine mating staging process? Or any other recommendations?


And thank you to all of my "student-appointed" mentors floating around on PM.

Wagner.



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After looking at again I remember thinking back when I did them as I think now. "What a piss poor design". I would proceed the way your going and consider extending the Rulon all the way to the ends of the entire length of the table. The way it is now the gap acts like a catch chips and acts like a funnel. But with the limited use you will give it, you can put it back the way it was. You will need to scrape it for oil pockets and just not fly cut it. You may be the greatest machinist in the world, but to get a match fit your dreaming. Plus not scraping oil pockets you will get stick slip.
 
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After looking at again I remember thinking back when I did them as I think now. "What a piss poor design". I proceed the way your going and consider extending the Rulon all the way to the ends of the entire length of the table. The way it is now the gap acts like a catch chips and acts like a funnel. But with the limited use you will give it, you can put it back the way it was. You will need to scrape it for oil pockets and just not fly cut it. You may be the greatest machinist in the world, but to get a match fit your dreaming. Plus not scraping oil pockets you will get stick slip.

10-4. Thank you.

What is the rational behind the fly cutting method? Everything that I could find on applying new turcite to table discussed milling it flat and then scraping... I assumed that it was to get an initial "starting plane", due to the fact that the distance is relatively large. ?



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After looking at again I remember thinking back when I did them as I think now. "What a piss poor design". I proceed the way your going and consider extending the Rulon all the way to the ends of the entire length of the table. The way it is now the gap acts like a catch chips and acts like a funnel. But with the limited use you will give it, you can put it back the way it was. You will need to scrape it for oil pockets and just not fly cut it. You may be the greatest machinist in the world, but to get a match fit your dreaming. Plus not scraping oil pockets you will get stick slip.

My 4020 and a couple others I've looked at has the Turcite going all the way to the end of the table
 
I figure Fadal did that on early models and had so many issues with it they ran it out to the ends. The ones I worked on were like this one. You can see they milled a pocket for it to set in. I wouldn't waste the time fly cutting it as it scraped easy. I have never fly cut it, but have ground it when I have to align a screw that isn't adjustable or gibs. plus if it moves on the double face tape and gets ruined, you will need to buy some more. If you want to try it, I would do it on a practice piece first, Give it a shot, we may learn something.
 
I figure Fadal did that on early models and had so many issues with it they ran it out to the ends. The ones I worked on were like this one. You can see they milled a pocket for it to set in. I wouldn't waste the time fly cutting it as it scraped easy. I have never fly cut it, but have ground it when I have to align a screw that isn't adjustable or gibs. plus if it moves on the double face tape and gets ruined, you will need to buy some more. If you want to try it, I would do it on a practice piece first, Give it a shot, we may learn something.

Sounds good to me. I would prefer scraping it to the expense of finding a shop to flycut it.

Thank you

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If you can wait until February, Alex and I will be teaching down in Navasota at Steve Watkins. We could drive up and spend a day helping you fit it.
I appreciate it, I surely do.

The problem is that I need to get the machine running asap to start figuring out the production process... among other hurdles.
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The snowball effect has started with some prototype products that I had made with hand tools a while back. The prototypes made their way into the hands of the relevant industries professionals.

Renown figures that influence the market are about to shove content on social media and YouTube. They're stoked and ready for the product to go big.

I am in a rush to knock everything out w/ limited resources, other entities jobs stacking up, and little to no other source of manpower... The American Dream, I reckon.



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You might have taken on a very large and time consuming job if you need to knock product out quick.

In the future I would have fixed the head first then worked your way down to the X and Y axis. At least that's the plan for mine right now but stuff happens when your in the mood to fix shit. My head came off way before I was ready I think. Keep the pictures coming.


Can you outsource the parts to made so you don't rush the reinstall of everything. How complex are they?
 
You might have taken on a very large and time consuming job if you need to knock product out quick.

In the future I would have fixed the head first then worked your way down to the X and Y axis. At least that's the plan for mine right now but stuff happens when your in the mood to fix shit. My head came off way before I was ready I think. Keep the pictures coming.


Can you outsource the parts to made so you don't rush the reinstall of everything. How complex are they?

It's all good, things are working out.

Haha. Yeah, was in the mindset and wanted to know what all I was going to need to replace. Didn't want to make 5 orders to fadalcnc. Also wanted to knock out the rulon in one fowl swoop, if necassary.

Tearing apart the x/y was a piece of cake - going to need two people to get the ballscrews out / lift the table and saddle.

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Had the ole coolpowered thrust bearings - so they were trashed... Going to do away with the liquid cooled ballscrews.

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Face to face loading on the thrust bearings, when you reinstall.

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Here are the fixtures I used for holding down the rulon.

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1/2" 1018 strap, Non-ground. other structural steel scrap clamped on top.

Against popular opinion, but after watching YouTube from tri-star regarding how they instructed to clamp up their product, I figured this method was overkill enough without blowing up the bank account.

We will see how it works once it's time to mate to box-ways.

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Started learning how to scrape today. Roughed out the four corners on each component and relieved the centers to prevent rocking.

Hopefully someone with more experience will point out any issues visible in the image... please :)

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This scraper was far superior than my first attempt at homemade. Far superior. Have to do a little trial and error with the motions and sharpening method to make sure that she doesn't score...

Waiting on some hi-spot. I screwed up and got the layout blue
Dykem. Yeah, it didn't go so well.

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As for the parts - the product off the machine is going to be much more refined than what I've already got out there, it is going to take a few rounds of prototypes to get it right. I just need to experiment with processes & tooling.

Btw, really feeling fortunate that businesses such as maritool exist... His presence and reputation on this forum really took a lot of the legwork out of sourcing the relevant product.

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Almost forgot.. the ballscrews.


So, I ended up removing the ballnut on x/y. Reinserting the balls was also a piece of cake.

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Also, sandblasting the old adhesive off slideways is far superior to nylon bristle brush or wire wheel... never had a day of blasting that didn't end with a severly chapped ass, but the result sure was worth the effort.

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Almost forgot.. the ballscrews.


So, I ended up removing the ballnut on x/y. Reinserting the balls was also a piece of cake.

9712cf8afd8dfb83d23afd3c79870bb5.jpg


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Also, sandblasting the old adhesive off slideways is far superior to nylon bristle brush or wire wheel... never had a day of blasting that didn't end with a severly chapped ass, but the result sure was worth the effort.

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It's my understanding that the balls in the ballnut are of 2 different sizes that alternate large/small/large etc. Having said that I reloaded a ballnut for a Makino 10+ years ago not knowing that and it's still working fine
 
It's my understanding that the balls in the ballnut are of 2 different sizes that alternate large/small/large etc. Having said that I reloaded a ballnut for a Makino 10+ years ago not knowing that and it's still working fine
The balls were the same size in each ballnut... I believe that method was decided to be inferior - I think that I read that from a member of this forum who evidently knows their stuff. Cannot remember the name.

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Looks like you got a pretty good handle on things.

Whats the plan to fit the head assembly? Throw it up there with a testbar in the spindle and see what you have?

Epic for a solo effort mate :)
 
Looks like you got a pretty good handle on things.

Whats the plan to fit the head assembly? Throw it up there with a testbar in the spindle and see what you have?

Epic for a solo effort mate :)

Yes sir - that is exactly what the plan is... blue up ways, install head, setup indicator on x-z plane, manually crank ballscrew, setup indicator on y-z plane, manually crank ballscrew, write down some numbers, uninstall head, do some math, figure out what to adjust, adjust, repeat.

It is going to be a pretty major pain in the ass. But it will be fun, nonetheless.

Thinking about mating the saddle and table first to practice on, not assembling completely until the head finished up.

Almost solo, have somebody that will drive a tractor to do the lifting while I guide.



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Update:

Had about 3 hrs this morning to work on the saddle. Hopefully will have time this weekend to finish up.

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Have a ways to go - but she is certainly looking better than the two contact points she originally had... Have to get a project out of shop this week before I can continue refining the bearing surface.

Maintaining tool is a bit of trial and error, getting a consistent bur. Nothing like a fresh edge...

Please let me know if there is anything obviously incorrect or that I have not taken into consideration due to my inexperience.

Thanks,

Wagner
 
No direct experience with this but just recollecting something I heard from Rich and I hope I'm not garbling it. Burrs, "fuzz" or whatever are just part of the process of scraping Turcite. After scraping, go over it with that tapered edge of the Biax gauge or equivalent. Similar to stoning after scraping cast iron.
 
The scraping looks really good in my opinion. From the pictures it looks plenty deep, I shoot for .003-.005 and I know many say .001-.003 is enough but from a tribological standpoint once you understand how ptfe liners work, there are some clear advantages to having a little more depth. Again it LOOKS good, but I always run an indicator over it when I'm done to make sure I've satisfied that requirement. Keep up the good work!
Chris
 
Have no experience with Turcite as yet so cant add anything meaningful about deburing, but looks good to me too. Is hitting all the way out to ends and missing in the centre's where you've intentionally relieved it a touch, good move imo, no rock.
The print maybe looks a little light to my eyes, so I'm wondering if you're using enough blue? It's kinda normal when starting out to try get it as thin as poss. I find it better to be a bit heavier when roughing getting lighter when finishing up, you get a feel for reading it.

Overall looking great, if you're aligned and scraping deep enough, id call those surfaces about done. :)
 
The scraping looks really good in my opinion. From the pictures it looks plenty deep, I shoot for .003-.005 and I know many say .001-.003 is enough but from a tribological standpoint once you understand how ptfe liners work, there are some clear advantages to having a little more depth. Again it LOOKS good, but I always run an indicator over it when I'm done to make sure I've satisfied that requirement. Keep up the good work!
Chris

By understand how ptfe liners work, are you referring to a break-in period of some sort?

I was planning to continue refining the surface in order to get a more uniform bearing.. are you saying that it is good to roll, or that it needs more work? .. This is first scraping project, so I do not really have an understanding of what is acceptable..

Thank you,
Wagner.

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