Fadal Turcite Advice

twmcree · Oct 11, 2018

Going to start off by thanking those users who regularly contribute their knowledge and experience to this forum. It is very helpful… Richard King, swatkins, triumph406, Speedie, aarongough to name a few that come to mind...

Speaking of Richard – hopefully I will be in a position to take full advantage of that 2019 King Scraping Class in Houston Tx.

Anyway, came across one of those once-in-a-lifetime-opportunities to purchase a 2000 Fadal 4020HT w/ 4th Axis... I think.

Machine Background:

Machine came from a facility that manufactured parts for the petroleum industry. Not to put er down, but she was definitely the ugly duckling on the floor relative to the surrounding equipment. From what I gather, they used the Fadal for nasty jobs, such as fiberglass. It seems to be everywhere - on machine and body... No telling what all is in the chip pile.

Please take a look at the following list regarding what I have encountered so far, I would love to learn from what you have to say.

Current status:

X axis:

???

That is interesting

Saddles look decent though..

Y axis:

Rubber on the way covers was gone. The area under the saddle was full of chips. Two broken way-wipes on the y-axis. Turcite is visible at the very edge of the y-way. It is chipped and the small pieces dangling off the way.

Slight scratches and rubbing marks are visible on portions of the right box way.

left looks pretty clean

to be continued shortly. need to upload more photos.

twmcree · Oct 11, 2018

Z axis:

fingernail can slightly discern the ridges located near the edges of the box way.

Table Top:

Some of the witness marks in the center of the table are worn through.. Could this be due to the abrasive nature of the fiberglass that they were machining or, to quote Speedie: “(If you see a machine that has a table without witness marks or milling marks expect it to need at least new turcite if not a scrape job and turcite)” - https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/speedies-fadal-reality-checklist-pre-2014-a-293726/ ? Also, I am curious how the state of the witness marks on the table correlate with the condition of the ways.??? I just can't conceptualize it..

Spindle brake plate? thing:

The bearing on the brake/slow down mechanism(?) is no longer concentric.

I am assuming that this is the cause of the deformed material shown in the image. The threaded brass sleeve(?) is just starting to be rubbed… Can I take a file and remove the hump, or will it throw things out of balance..? maybe induce vibration in spindle & ultimately the tool, decreasing spindle/tool life, surface finish, etc.?

To be continued shortly.

twmcree · Oct 11, 2018

Regarding Turcite Repair.

I am certainly capable of feeling my way through the disassembly of table and saddle, removal of old turcite, preparation & application of new turcite.

The portion that I will have trouble with is truing the turcite and cutting of the oil paths..

OP of https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/machine-reconditioning-scraping-and-inspection/oil-grooves-fadal-saddle-table-turcite-348840/ mentions fly cutting the turcite flat and milling the oil grooves.

There was another post, thought that I saved it, where Richard briefly mentioned scraping the mate to fit.. if memory serves.... so, where does this fall in with the machining process?

From what I have gathered, my two options are either machining the turcite or hand scraping?

to be continued shortly... make that tomorrow. got to get to bed.

A sincere thank you for reading this far. Definitely looking forward to your response/s.

Best,
Wagner

Richard King · Oct 12, 2018

We just did a thread on a this. https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...spection/fadal-head-rebuild-questions-353903/

plus here is one I did a few years back too.
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...mura-mycenter-head-way-turcite-repair-313068/

I did a class for 4 maintenance men at a company up here a few years back (having a memory lapse now for name, I'll add it when I remember.) I taught them to hand scrape Rulon 142 (same as Turcite B) then Fadal….the ways were a lot worse then yours so we sent the saddle, column and table out to grind everything to clean up. We ended up putting .062" Rulon on the ways. I taught them how to scrape and align the saddle, table and headstock. We did it in 2 trips. Before and after grinding. I was there about 4 days the first trip and 5 the 2nd. They helped and learned how to do it themselves. Since then they have rebuilt 3 more by themselves.

As many of my students know, scraping Rulon / Turcite is easy, I say it's like scraping butter compared to cast iron.

If you want to get it up and running so you can make parts then I would just polish the hard ways and put on new Rulon, wipers, oil lines, metering units, repair the spindle, etc. If your mechanically inclined it shouldn't be super difficult. How far are you from Steve Watkins in Navasota Texas? You could attend his class and the week later I could come and help you do the rebuild of the ways. Or you could bring the column and head and it could be your class project? If he had room?? I would guess the Rulon / epoxy would cost around $400.00. Do some rough measuring and I can get a quote on it. Cutting oil grooves is also easy as heck by hand, no worries. Have to run now. more later. Rich

Duc · Oct 12, 2018

twmcree said:
Z axis:

View attachment 239879

View attachment 239880

fingernail can slightly discern the ridges located near the edges of the box way.

Table Top:

Some of the witness marks in the center of the table are worn through.. Could this be due to the abrasive nature of the fiberglass that they were machining or, to quote Speedie: “(If you see a machine that has a table without witness marks or milling marks expect it to need at least new turcite if not a scrape job and turcite)” - https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/speedies-fadal-reality-checklist-pre-2014-a-293726/ ? Also, I am curious how the state of the witness marks on the table correlate with the condition of the ways.??? I just can't conceptualize it..

Spindle brake plate? thing:

View attachment 239881

View attachment 239882

The bearing on the brake/slow down mechanism(?) is no longer concentric.

I am assuming that this is the cause of the deformed material shown in the image. The threaded brass sleeve(?) is just starting to be rubbed… Can I take a file and remove the hump, or will it throw things out of balance..? maybe induce vibration in spindle & ultimately the tool, decreasing spindle/tool life, surface finish, etc.?

To be continued shortly.

I keep meaning to update my thread with all my progress but I need to find time to upload pictures and all the new parts I had to buy.

1. Pulley damage - Looks like the spindle alignment cylinder is staying against the pulley while the spindle is rotating. Either the air cylinder is bad or the system is binding. At this point the roller contact and the pulley will probably need replacing.

2. Check the lube on the ways - In normal operation there should be some lube you can feel on each way. If not it could be time to rebuild the distribution blocks.

twmcree · Oct 12, 2018

"We just did a thread on a this. Fadal Head Rebuild questions

plus here is one I did a few years back too.
Kitamura Mycenter Head Way Turcite Repair"

I will get to really studying these and outlining a process asap.. hopefully tonight.

"As many of my students know, scraping Rulon / Turcite is easy, I say it's like scraping butter compared to cast iron."
"Cutting oil grooves is also easy as heck by hand, no worries. "

Good, it does not sound like scraping will be a problem - with the proper tools and instruction. Do a lot of custom woodworking/metalworking, plenty of experience working with hands.

“Or you could bring the column and head and it could be your class project? If he had room??”

Hmm, the machine was bought for prototyping some ideas that I’ve got on the blackboard – it is nothing that cannot be pushed back in order to prolong the useful life of the machine. As far as the repairs go - not worried about aesthetics or any of that, just preventative maintenance and mechanical function… That said, I would not mind pulling the column off as well. The head would already be off anyway, might as well go the extra mile or two. It would be yet another opportunity to learn the machine and hone my abilities anyway.

"How far are you from Steve Watkins in Navasota Texas?"

Steve is basically my neighbor, only 2 hours down the road – how convenient. Really stoked to hear that he puts on classes.

"You could attend his class and the week later I could come and help you do the rebuild of the ways"

Wow, that would be such an honor..! Scraping one on one with the master… Hope you do not mind if I hog all of the “work”.

Off the top of your head, what would a rough estimate of the learning curve expenses: Steve’s class, your travel expenses/time, etc.?
Not looking for any free rides here - just trying to get a handle on future expenses so that I can plan accordingly.

"Pulley damage - Looks like the spindle alignment cylinder is staying against the pulley while the spindle is rotating. Either the air cylinder is bad or the system is binding. At this point the roller contact and the pulley will probably need replacing."

Ah, I see. Alignment for the ATC? that makes much more sense. I reckon a brake mechanism would have a much more efficient design.

Thank y'all for y'alls time and detailed responses!

And thank you Duc, for following up on thread regarding your progress. Your past efforts are certainly going to come in handy.

Will hopefully have a chance to continue this journey tonight.
Best,
W

Richard King · Oct 12, 2018

Send me an email and your phone number. [email protected] then we talk about things in more detail. :-) Rich

twmcree · Oct 21, 2018

Rich,

What would you recommend using to polish the ways?

Duc · Oct 21, 2018

twmcree said:
Rich,

What would you recommend using to polish the ways?

I left mine alone. I might have stoned them but unsure at this point but anything short of a surface grinder or a flap wheel will do nothing to the harden surface. Now there is a thread somewhere with a person using a grinder to touch up harden ways but that was way beyond my skills.

At least there was no rust on your ways from the pictures.

Richard King · Oct 21, 2018

I would mic the box ways front to back and the sides the gib and positive side. Lets figure out how worn they are. Many times you leave them alone like Duc did. lets find out how worn they are before recommending what to do, either polish or grind them.

triumph406 · Oct 21, 2018

I'm not sure I see anything wrong with the ways, the X-axis turcite is better than mine, the ragged edge of the y-axis turcite I'm sure isn't an issue unless the turcite had come completely loose and was pocking out from underneath the saddle.

Personally I'd make sure all the gib adjustments were correct and the ways are getting oil and run the machine.

The top of the pulley doesn't look great. If there's enough material and shape left to get the tool accurately lined up with the ATC then I'd leave it alone. Mines worn in a similar fashion and doesn't effect the tool change orientation enough to prevent tool changes.

twmcree · Oct 22, 2018

10-4. Best news I've had in a while. Was under impression that it needed total overhaul, I guess somebody had ulterior motives.

Orientation during toolchange is correct - spindle ear goes in atc slot.

Ways are receiving oil just fine.

Will mic machine as soon as it is off the trailer and leveled.

Thank y'all! Will be able to sleep easier now.

triumph406 · Oct 23, 2018

When the X-axis Turcite becomes unglued at the ends, that's the beginning of the end for the X-axis Turcite. My understanding that's more likely to happen than just wearing out from use.

triumph406 · Oct 24, 2018

twmcree said:
Noted. Thank you.

Finally got it off of the trailer yesterday. Found a gib surface on the y that is not receiving oil - looks like it is puddling up under table.

Have a vibration in the head: Can see the engaged hi or low idler wheel bouncing during rotation, regardless of rpm. It looks like the end of the drawbar is orbiting around the pin that pushes down drawbaw to release tool (same center of rotation, different center of each entity)... have yall encountered this?

Do know that I need to add fluid to the hi/low actuator blocks.

Hopefully I will be able to devote some time to machine tonight.

If it's a locking drawbar, the top of the locking mechanism is a slip fit into the top of the spindle bore, it should be concentric to the drawbar pusher, and should be spinning without any run-out.

If it's a non-locking drawbar not sure how that interfaces with the spindle. You can tell by looking down into the top of the spindle which one you have.

The first thing I'd do is pull off the bridge over the drawbar, and replace the Belleviles, there's no gaurentee there all intact, and if they haven't been changed in a while there's likely to be a few (maybe a lot) broken. There cheap.

The hi/lo could be bouncing due to insufficient air pressure. You need to make sure your getting sufficient pressure to the hi'lo mechanism. Or your belts could be shot.

twmcree · Oct 24, 2018

Perfect. Thank you.

Drawbar is locking type. Air pressure is fine.

Ordered belleville compression tool Monday. Should be here Friday.

Alright: Was in conversational mode taking a closer look at the correlation between vibration and spindle speed. Went from S7600 to S4000 and the spindle orientation cylinder briefly (1 sec) activated..?? .. it'll make you jump a bit.

twmcree · Oct 26, 2018

Runout:

.001 spindle pulley
.001 motor pulley
.01 drawbar

twmcree · Oct 26, 2018

What is the protocol for reducing the runout on the pulleys? Or is this within spec?

Thank you!

twmcree · Oct 26, 2018

Update;

Measured top of pulley plane w/ indicator,

Getting a run-out of .002

triumph406 · Oct 26, 2018

twmcree said:
What is the protocol for reducing the runout on the pulleys? Or is this within spec?

Thank you!

None, the Pulley is a shrink fit onto the spindle. No idea what the spec is.

triumph406 · Oct 26, 2018

twmcree said:
Air pressure is fine.

100psi? I found 85psi was giving me "lazy" tool changes

twmcree said:
Air pressure is fine.

Ordered belleville compression tool Monday. Should be here Friday.

Alright: Was in conversational mode taking a closer look at the correlation between vibration and spindle speed. Went from S7600 to S4000 and the spindle orientation cylinder briefly (1 sec) activated..?? .. it'll make you jump a bit.

See if it does that when commanded in a program. I'm not going to try that with mine just in case it does the same thing.

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