Fadal Turcite Advice
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  1. #1
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    Default Fadal Turcite Advice

    Going to start off by thanking those users who regularly contribute their knowledge and experience to this forum. It is very helpful… Richard King, swatkins, triumph406, Speedie, aarongough to name a few that come to mind...

    Speaking of Richard – hopefully I will be in a position to take full advantage of that 2019 King Scraping Class in Houston Tx.

    Anyway, came across one of those once-in-a-lifetime-opportunities to purchase a 2000 Fadal 4020HT w/ 4th Axis... I think.

    Machine Background:
    Machine came from a facility that manufactured parts for the petroleum industry. Not to put er down, but she was definitely the ugly duckling on the floor relative to the surrounding equipment. From what I gather, they used the Fadal for nasty jobs, such as fiberglass. It seems to be everywhere - on machine and body... No telling what all is in the chip pile.

    Please take a look at the following list regarding what I have encountered so far, I would love to learn from what you have to say.

    Current status:

    X axis:
    ???

    x-way-1.1-up.jpg
    That is interesting
    x-way-2-up.jpg
    Saddles look decent though..

    Y axis:
    Rubber on the way covers was gone. The area under the saddle was full of chips. Two broken way-wipes on the y-axis. Turcite is visible at the very edge of the y-way. It is chipped and the small pieces dangling off the way.

    y-way-1-up.jpg
    Slight scratches and rubbing marks are visible on portions of the right box way.

    y-way-2-up.jpg
    left looks pretty clean

    y-turcite-upl.jpg

    to be continued shortly. need to upload more photos.

  2. #2
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    Z axis:

    z-axis-2-up.jpg

    z-axis-1-up.jpg

    fingernail can slightly discern the ridges located near the edges of the box way.


    Table Top:
    Some of the witness marks in the center of the table are worn through.. Could this be due to the abrasive nature of the fiberglass that they were machining or, to quote Speedie: “(If you see a machine that has a table without witness marks or milling marks expect it to need at least new turcite if not a scrape job and turcite)” - Speedie's Fadal reality checklist (pre 2014) ? Also, I am curious how the state of the witness marks on the table correlate with the condition of the ways.??? I just can't conceptualize it..

    Spindle brake plate? thing:


    spindle-brake-up.jpg

    spindle-brake-2-up.jpg

    The bearing on the brake/slow down mechanism(?) is no longer concentric.

    I am assuming that this is the cause of the deformed material shown in the image. The threaded brass sleeve(?) is just starting to be rubbed… Can I take a file and remove the hump, or will it throw things out of balance..? maybe induce vibration in spindle & ultimately the tool, decreasing spindle/tool life, surface finish, etc.?


    To be continued shortly.

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    Regarding Turcite Repair.

    I am certainly capable of feeling my way through the disassembly of table and saddle, removal of old turcite, preparation & application of new turcite.

    The portion that I will have trouble with is truing the turcite and cutting of the oil paths..

    OP of Oil grooves for Fadal saddle and table turcite mentions fly cutting the turcite flat and milling the oil grooves.

    There was another post, thought that I saved it, where Richard briefly mentioned scraping the mate to fit.. if memory serves.... so, where does this fall in with the machining process?

    From what I have gathered, my two options are either machining the turcite or hand scraping?

    to be continued shortly... make that tomorrow. got to get to bed.

    A sincere thank you for reading this far. Definitely looking forward to your response/s.

    Best,
    Wagner

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    We just did a thread on a this. Fadal Head Rebuild questions

    plus here is one I did a few years back too.
    Kitamura Mycenter Head Way Turcite Repair

    I did a class for 4 maintenance men at a company up here a few years back (having a memory lapse now for name, I'll add it when I remember.) I taught them to hand scrape Rulon 142 (same as Turcite B) then Fadal….the ways were a lot worse then yours so we sent the saddle, column and table out to grind everything to clean up. We ended up putting .062" Rulon on the ways. I taught them how to scrape and align the saddle, table and headstock. We did it in 2 trips. Before and after grinding. I was there about 4 days the first trip and 5 the 2nd. They helped and learned how to do it themselves. Since then they have rebuilt 3 more by themselves.

    As many of my students know, scraping Rulon / Turcite is easy, I say it's like scraping butter compared to cast iron.

    If you want to get it up and running so you can make parts then I would just polish the hard ways and put on new Rulon, wipers, oil lines, metering units, repair the spindle, etc. If your mechanically inclined it shouldn't be super difficult. How far are you from Steve Watkins in Navasota Texas? You could attend his class and the week later I could come and help you do the rebuild of the ways. Or you could bring the column and head and it could be your class project? If he had room?? I would guess the Rulon / epoxy would cost around $400.00. Do some rough measuring and I can get a quote on it. Cutting oil grooves is also easy as heck by hand, no worries. Have to run now. more later. Rich

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  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by twmcree View Post
    Z axis:

    z-axis-2-up.jpg

    z-axis-1-up.jpg

    fingernail can slightly discern the ridges located near the edges of the box way.


    Table Top:
    Some of the witness marks in the center of the table are worn through.. Could this be due to the abrasive nature of the fiberglass that they were machining or, to quote Speedie: “(If you see a machine that has a table without witness marks or milling marks expect it to need at least new turcite if not a scrape job and turcite)” - Speedie's Fadal reality checklist (pre 2014) ? Also, I am curious how the state of the witness marks on the table correlate with the condition of the ways.??? I just can't conceptualize it..

    Spindle brake plate? thing:


    spindle-brake-up.jpg

    spindle-brake-2-up.jpg

    The bearing on the brake/slow down mechanism(?) is no longer concentric.

    I am assuming that this is the cause of the deformed material shown in the image. The threaded brass sleeve(?) is just starting to be rubbed… Can I take a file and remove the hump, or will it throw things out of balance..? maybe induce vibration in spindle & ultimately the tool, decreasing spindle/tool life, surface finish, etc.?


    To be continued shortly.
    I keep meaning to update my thread with all my progress but I need to find time to upload pictures and all the new parts I had to buy.


    1. Pulley damage - Looks like the spindle alignment cylinder is staying against the pulley while the spindle is rotating. Either the air cylinder is bad or the system is binding. At this point the roller contact and the pulley will probably need replacing.

    2. Check the lube on the ways - In normal operation there should be some lube you can feel on each way. If not it could be time to rebuild the distribution blocks.

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    "We just did a thread on a this. Fadal Head Rebuild questions

    plus here is one I did a few years back too.
    Kitamura Mycenter Head Way Turcite Repair"

    I will get to really studying these and outlining a process asap.. hopefully tonight.

    "As many of my students know, scraping Rulon / Turcite is easy, I say it's like scraping butter compared to cast iron."
    "Cutting oil grooves is also easy as heck by hand, no worries. "

    Good, it does not sound like scraping will be a problem - with the proper tools and instruction. Do a lot of custom woodworking/metalworking, plenty of experience working with hands.
    “Or you could bring the column and head and it could be your class project? If he had room??”

    Hmm, the machine was bought for prototyping some ideas that I’ve got on the blackboard – it is nothing that cannot be pushed back in order to prolong the useful life of the machine. As far as the repairs go - not worried about aesthetics or any of that, just preventative maintenance and mechanical function… That said, I would not mind pulling the column off as well. The head would already be off anyway, might as well go the extra mile or two. It would be yet another opportunity to learn the machine and hone my abilities anyway.

    "How far are you from Steve Watkins in Navasota Texas?"

    Steve is basically my neighbor, only 2 hours down the road – how convenient. Really stoked to hear that he puts on classes.

    "You could attend his class and the week later I could come and help you do the rebuild of the ways"

    Wow, that would be such an honor..! Scraping one on one with the master… Hope you do not mind if I hog all of the “work”.

    Off the top of your head, what would a rough estimate of the learning curve expenses: Steve’s class, your travel expenses/time, etc.?
    Not looking for any free rides here - just trying to get a handle on future expenses so that I can plan accordingly.

    "Pulley damage - Looks like the spindle alignment cylinder is staying against the pulley while the spindle is rotating. Either the air cylinder is bad or the system is binding. At this point the roller contact and the pulley will probably need replacing."

    Ah, I see. Alignment for the ATC? that makes much more sense. I reckon a brake mechanism would have a much more efficient design.

    Thank y'all for y'alls time and detailed responses!

    And thank you Duc, for following up on thread regarding your progress. Your past efforts are certainly going to come in handy.


    Will hopefully have a chance to continue this journey tonight.
    Best,
    W

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    Send me an email and your phone number. [email protected] then we talk about things in more detail. :-) Rich

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    Rich,

    What would you recommend using to polish the ways?

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    Quote Originally Posted by twmcree View Post
    Rich,

    What would you recommend using to polish the ways?
    I left mine alone. I might have stoned them but unsure at this point but anything short of a surface grinder or a flap wheel will do nothing to the harden surface. Now there is a thread somewhere with a person using a grinder to touch up harden ways but that was way beyond my skills.

    At least there was no rust on your ways from the pictures.

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    I would mic the box ways front to back and the sides the gib and positive side. Lets figure out how worn they are. Many times you leave them alone like Duc did. lets find out how worn they are before recommending what to do, either polish or grind them.

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    I'm not sure I see anything wrong with the ways, the X-axis turcite is better than mine, the ragged edge of the y-axis turcite I'm sure isn't an issue unless the turcite had come completely loose and was pocking out from underneath the saddle.

    Personally I'd make sure all the gib adjustments were correct and the ways are getting oil and run the machine.

    The top of the pulley doesn't look great. If there's enough material and shape left to get the tool accurately lined up with the ATC then I'd leave it alone. Mines worn in a similar fashion and doesn't effect the tool change orientation enough to prevent tool changes.

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  16. #12
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    10-4. Best news I've had in a while. Was under impression that it needed total overhaul, I guess somebody had ulterior motives.

    Orientation during toolchange is correct - spindle ear goes in atc slot.

    Ways are receiving oil just fine.

    Will mic machine as soon as it is off the trailer and leveled.

    Thank y'all! Will be able to sleep easier now.


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