How to determine which surface to scrape first on a bed ways. - Page 2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon73 View Post
    I be honest Dee, I might be a bit lost here .

    When you say level, do you mean that the bed be free of twist as can best be measured from unworn surfaces? If so I totally agree, but tbh would be amazed if a bed like that has any note worthy twist, its no long skinny lite weight. Checking level at each end of the bed between the shears, or with a box level from surface 11 for anything horrible would only take a mo. If it was found to be bad then its up on tray and bases and torqued straight before the fun begins . The important thing for me with surface 9 is that the ends mike the same at 9/10, id be hoping that 10 just needs stoning cos it looks a right PITA to get an there and work it.

    Reminds me of a conversation that came up with my bed re working it on three points or bases. Be interesting to hear how RC etal would approach the setup for grinding.
    Yes free of twist. Sorry I was not clear enough. But you got the point, which is how vitally important to establish a solid baseline before making iron dust. I do not know if the three-point is sufficient for that size of the lathe, I imagine it is. For a large or slinky small machine, the easiest would be to level first. Anyhow, Lurk will figure it out, he is a clever dude.

    dee
    ;-D

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    Quote Originally Posted by MCritchley View Post
    Lurk,

    Do you have the Connely book? I do not have my copy in front of me, it may have the sequence of what you are looking for all mapped out.
    Ive had 2 e copies and both have been lost on separate tablets which failed along with a lot of other useful info'. Ive a back up on line which I am going to re-download and start looking through when I get another tablet / laptop that works. Had I the funds I would invest in a hard copy (book) along with the other book frequently refereed to 'Principles of Mechanical Accuracy ...'

    mat

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    Yes free of twist. Sorry I was not clear enough. But you got the point, which is how vitally important to establish a solid baseline before making iron dust. I do not know if the three-point is sufficient for that size of the lathe, I imagine it is. For a large or slinky small machine, the easiest would be to level first. Anyhow, Lurk will figure it out, he is a clever dude.

    dee
    ;-D
    And there we have the first contentious point raised !

    I'm reading these comments as they drop in and sinking slowly into my seat .... tis going to be a challenge working my way through the options to see whats most suitable for this bed / my skills.

    As soon as I have some bed assessment I will update the post - I will try and include as much in the way of images as I can.

    Thanks to everyone that has added to the thread - it really is encouraging for me.

    Cheers Mat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post
    And there we have the first contentious point raised !

    I'm reading these comments as they drop in and sinking slowly into my seat .... tis going to be a challenge working my way through the options to see whats most suitable for this bed / my skills.

    As soon as I have some bed assessment I will update the post - I will try and include as much in the way of images as I can.

    Thanks to everyone that has added to the thread - it really is encouraging for me.

    Cheers Mat
    Common' you know this is not an axiom, if there were 9 ways to skin a cat, there are 15 ways to solve this. I am just throwing my thinking in the ring. baseline it, baseline it. Once you have something solid you can build from there.


    dee
    ;-D

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    I was not thinking of that as a reference all along, but as a "height" reference for each end, to "point" the scraping by checking at each end in order to keep the scraped way level with the original factory alignment. That can then be a reference to keep the rest in line.

    I'm thinking that would minimize the amount of fiddling with the auxiliary stuff and gib ways.

    Maybe a good plan, maybe impractical
    Yep thats pretty much how I see things, to bring in the TS ways at least.
    Surface 10 could even be trashed in the middle but as long as the ends mic the same youve a solid reference to bring in surface 9. From there you could use a Kingway or a level on blocks (being careful ) to help bring in surface 6, and from there 7/8 using a clock.
    bringing-ts-flat-v-way.jpg

    Id prefer the Kingway running on the TS V/flat as shown rather than surfaces 6/9/B, its nicer to use with gravity on your side. From this position you can clock and bring in 4/5. With the exception of gib surfaces 3 and 10, the roughing complete.
    kingway-riding-tailstock-ways.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_Maguire View Post
    Rightly mentioned above, the order of operations and mapping depends. Turcite & hard ways have really changed the game but that doesn’t mean Machine Tool Reconditioning by Connelly is useless.

    Connelly orders the lathe map-rebuild in roughly the reverse order of the construction sequence. Keep in mind this work assumes everything is done by hand in the rebuild. Mostly the only tools available being scrapers, surface plates, some pins & bars, squares and maybe dial indicators… So it starts by fixing the compound, cross slide, saddle ways & then working down to the bed. IMO, for scraping “straight down” to fix the bed geometry would be easier with a good master → Connelly has it!

    For Lurks purpose here the carriage (saddle) would be "made right" first & then used as a sled for mapping the ways if following Connellys’ order list. That work happens on a bench and is checked (square to crosslide) on a surface plate.

    All the above mentioned unused bed surfaces are valid for reference planes when it gets to the point of mapping the bed with the sled.

    The real truth about soft way machines & slideways is the short member of the two (saddle here) is MILES worse than the long ways. Old timey, it wasn’t unusual for just the saddle & cross slide to be refreshed & the machine put back in service.

    This is gonna be a lot of work for sure...

    Good luck,
    Matt
    Im not sure I went full blown Connelly on my go round, but I did start with the compound. I think mainly to warm up for doing the bed, which I was a bit in awe of lol. Thinking back the bed was probably easiest bit, but I didnt see it that way before I started, got a lot more brain ache getting the saddle and cross slide sorted out iirc

    Talking about using the saddle and TS base as masters jogs a memory. Iirc, they became more important when finalling the bed ways. With their surfaces checked on the table and against straight edges, the 3 things I thought about were:- Refining alignment, keeping the bedways straight (well, very slightly convex actually) and having the saddle and TS base print well anywhere on the bed. Was a gradual coming together rather than a 123 type deal.
    While its on my mind, a Kingway might not detect wind in individual surfaces, but have a master to check the print negates this.
    kingway-missing-wind.jpg

    Defo gonna be a lot of work, but worth it I think from a learning and enjoyment point of view, plus you got a spanking straight machine, WHEN youre finally, at last, jebus did it really take that long!? Done.

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    How to determine which surface to scrape first on a bed ways.
    I'm just finishing up this Holbrook B8. I did the long ways first, H/S & T/S. Start with one side of the V, then do the other. Then using a level to check parallelism, between the V and flat, do the flat. Now with the long ways done, the other three are comparatively easy in that you can run an indicator along them using the ways as a reference. Next scrape in the tailstock to the bed, after honing the bore and grinding the quill (after hard chrome), then the headstock to the bed. I go with this order because there will likely have the tailstock lower than the headstock), then the carriage pancake stack and finally adjust the leadscrew position. That's the simplified one paragraph version, of course the standard rule is plan out the whole sequence taking into account all surfaces.

    I prefer, because I'm only doing this for my machines, to have scraped on scraped or scraped on ground vs moglice or turcite. Those materials make it easier and maybe the obvious choice in a commercial setting where there's a bill to be paid and no one expects it to last forever. However crap can embed itself in them and I think they require a more sophisticated wiper system for optimal performance. Maybe its not an issue and I'm imagining things, but I when I get machine done for my use, I want to keep it slathered in oil and perfect for the rest of my days. Its also a function of size too, I'd be more interested in those composite materials for a larger lathe, however man handling the tailstock and headstock for the countless scraping iterations required is no big deal on a little lathe like the B8 .




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    It is probably trivial, but there is also a tolerance for the leadscrew parallel with the carriage as it travels along (along with vertical)

    The area 1 on the image above is probably a datum surface as well, used when the bed was set up for grinding.

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    [/QUOTE]

    Surface B stands forward of 11 by approx 1/2" both appear ground finish & in good condition - I have as yet not checked their alignment with face A or 1

    Surface 10 is a good finish and (best I can see & feel) free from obvious wear.
    A micrometer over 9/10 shows approx 0.0025" at worst of wear - this is supported by a SE and feeler gauge test & light test.

    Surface 6 and the surface below it on which the TS clamp plate locates - feels planed not ground below (as I would expect) - mic' test shows c 0.003" wear toward middle of the bed The surface 6 shows a lot of mechanical damage - having knocked the burs off a SE & feeler gauge supports the same measurement concentrated around 12" in from the TS end.

    The surface between 5/6 is clean and original planned surface

    faces 4 & 5 show approx 0.0035" wear toward the HS end.

    Surface 1 Rack is bolted to this face.

    All this is a quick rough and dirty assessment made with a machined SE and old feeler gauge 2,3 & 4 thou'

    Bed dims below the HS & very end of the TS show the same dims at 9/10 also for 6 & below. which is to me a good indication of where to start from as a baseline.

    Ive a few hours work shifting stuff around so I can pull the bed into a working position and get the multitude of cast Iron SE hung out the way - then I will take a look at the TS and Saddle castings.

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    ^^ That sounds in good shape Mat, I bet your back gave you a high five!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post


    Surface B stands forward of 11 by approx 1/2" both appear ground finish & in good condition - I have as yet not checked their alignment with face A or 1

    Surface 10 is a good finish and (best I can see & feel) free from obvious wear.
    A micrometer over 9/10 shows approx 0.0025" at worst of wear - this is supported by a SE and feeler gauge test & light test.

    Surface 6 and the surface below it on which the TS clamp plate locates - feels planed not ground below (as I would expect) - mic' test shows c 0.003" wear toward middle of the bed The surface 6 shows a lot of mechanical damage - having knocked the burs off a SE & feeler gauge supports the same measurement concentrated around 12" in from the TS end.

    The surface between 5/6 is clean and original planned surface

    faces 4 & 5 show approx 0.0035" wear toward the HS end.

    Surface 1 Rack is bolted to this face.

    All this is a quick rough and dirty assessment made with a machined SE and old feeler gauge 2,3 & 4 thou'

    Bed dims below the HS & very end of the TS show the same dims at 9/10 also for 6 & below. which is to me a good indication of where to start from as a baseline.

    Ive a few hours work shifting stuff around so I can pull the bed into a working position and get the multitude of cast Iron SE hung out the way - then I will take a look at the TS and Saddle castings.
    That all sounds good , all within scraping targets, I would not use plastics for this, just CI on CI. If you can make your kigngway slide on the in-between 5&6 and 8&9 surfaces you could qualify those as possible horizontal references, since you already know the wear on the TS ways. You could also clock them against an SE on blocks....another 16 ways to make the cat lose its skin. I agree with Demon, gravity is more consistent than hand pressing against any surface. If you have two surfaces flat and parallel, that is the best place to start from. Second, best is a V and a flat, first verifying that the flat is flat.

    Looking forward to your progress. You do great videos. BTW thanks for sharing your thought process on this, trying to help you is helping me with my planning on the B&S 618. I did some snooping but not at the point of sharing anything. Your project is way nmore complex than mine.

    dee
    ;-D

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon73 View Post
    Im not sure I went full blown Connelly on my go round, but I did start with the compound. I think mainly to warm up for doing the bed, which I was a bit in awe of lol. Thinking back the bed was probably easiest bit, but I didnt see it that way before I started, got a lot more brain ache getting the saddle and cross slide sorted out iirc

    Talking about using the saddle and TS base as masters jogs a memory. Iirc, they became more important when finalling the bed ways. With their surfaces checked on the table and against straight edges, the 3 things I thought about were:- Refining alignment, keeping the bedways straight (well, very slightly convex actually) and having the saddle and TS base print well anywhere on the bed. Was a gradual coming together rather than a 123 type deal.
    While its on my mind, a Kingway might not detect wind in individual surfaces, but have a master to check the print negates this.
    kingway-missing-wind.jpg

    Defo gonna be a lot of work, but worth it I think from a learning and enjoyment point of view, plus you got a spanking straight machine, WHEN youre finally, at last, jebus did it really take that long!? Done.

    Depending on how your indicator is setup on the Kingway you can identify those missing measurements. The main level checks for twist while the dial indicator can be set up to check parallelism, it would not miss a measurement in the situations you show in your drawing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex King View Post
    Depending on how your indicator is setup on the Kingway you can identify those missing measurements. The main level checks for twist while the dial indicator can be set up to check parallelism, it would not miss a measurement in the situations you show in your drawing.
    Thats a good point! You could indicate near the edge of the surface to check for any deviation .
    seeing-way-wind-indicator.jpg

    In reality the error I found on my lathe was tiny, only took a touch to bring them in, a tenth or 3 is all im guessin. But that was on relatively short skinny ways using a longer straight edge, so youd expect them to be close.
    If you found yourself working longer wider surfaces with a short SE, the potential for drift would be far greater. The setup above would work well to keep a speedy eye on. Anyways, I cant recall seeing it talked about before so thought id mention it whilst my memory was jogged. Might save someone a bit of brainache

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    Not had a huge amount of time to progress the bed directly - but a quick question on the foot arrangement for the kingway 'sled' if I aim to have it slide down the two original machined (not ground) flat surfaces - does it matter which foot goes to which surface ? The narrow face is 5/8" wide max, where as the wider flat is getting on for 2" - the original measurements I took, I placed a set of 5/8"x5" long steel parallels on the surfaces and ran a dti base between them across the bed with the indicator running along the surface being measured - it worked 'ok' but holding everything together was tricky - fine for +/- a 0.001" but no use for finer.

    Ive machined the slotted tube foot for my kingway sled to fit around 1/3rd down the inverted V as I can determine no lower portion which is 'unworn' so figured keep the slot narrow and it will work on smaller Vs / dovetails later. It will not reach down into the 5/8" wide flat for sure. So I either make another narrow foot for this job, or stick the single foot / ball end in that flat slot ..

    Am I missing something ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post
    Not had a huge amount of time to progress the bed directly - but a quick question on the foot arrangement for the kingway 'sled' if I aim to have it slide down the two original machined (not ground) flat surfaces - does it matter which foot goes to which surface ? The narrow face is 5/8" wide max, where as the wider flat is getting on for 2" - the original measurements I took, I placed a set of 5/8"x5" long steel parallels on the surfaces and ran a dti base between them across the bed with the indicator running along the surface being measured - it worked 'ok' but holding everything together was tricky - fine for +/- a 0.001" but no use for finer.

    Ive machined the slotted tube foot for my kingway sled to fit around 1/3rd down the inverted V as I can determine no lower portion which is 'unworn' so figured keep the slot narrow and it will work on smaller Vs / dovetails later. It will not reach down into the 5/8" wide flat for sure. So I either make another narrow foot for this job, or stick the single foot / ball end in that flat slot ..

    Am I missing something ?
    Im thick with cold atm Mat so extra slow today . Are you talking about the areas between the V/flats? Looking for twist? Just use a level on parallels making sure the level is square to the bed and that the bed itself isnt moving excessively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post
    Not had a huge amount of time to progress the bed directly - but a quick question on the foot arrangement for the kingway 'sled' if I aim to have it slide down the two original machined (not ground) flat surfaces - does it matter which foot goes to which surface ? The narrow face is 5/8" wide max, where as the wider flat is getting on for 2" - the original measurements I took, I placed a set of 5/8"x5" long steel parallels on the surfaces and ran a dti base between them across the bed with the indicator running along the surface being measured - it worked 'ok' but holding everything together was tricky - fine for +/- a 0.001" but no use for finer.

    Ive machined the slotted tube foot for my kingway sled to fit around 1/3rd down the inverted V as I can determine no lower portion which is 'unworn' so figured keep the slot narrow and it will work on smaller Vs / dovetails later. It will not reach down into the 5/8" wide flat for sure. So I either make another narrow foot for this job, or stick the single foot / ball end in that flat slot ..

    Am I missing something ?
    No matter what you do, you want a 3 point arrangement. one small ball or flat in one and probably a 5" to 6" long with a point on either end that fits into the slot.

    dee
    ;-D

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post
    Not had a huge amount of time to progress the bed directly - but a quick question on the foot arrangement for the kingway 'sled' if I aim to have it slide down the two original machined (not ground) flat surfaces - does it matter which foot goes to which surface ? The narrow face is 5/8" wide max, where as the wider flat is getting on for 2" - the original measurements I took, I placed a set of 5/8"x5" long steel parallels on the surfaces and ran a dti base between them across the bed with the indicator running along the surface being measured - it worked 'ok' but holding everything together was tricky - fine for +/- a 0.001" but no use for finer.

    Ive machined the slotted tube foot for my kingway sled to fit around 1/3rd down the inverted V as I can determine no lower portion which is 'unworn' so figured keep the slot narrow and it will work on smaller Vs / dovetails later. It will not reach down into the 5/8" wide flat for sure. So I either make another narrow foot for this job, or stick the single foot / ball end in that flat slot ..

    Am I missing something ?
    I'm trying to envision your setup here? When you are talking about the narrow face and wide face are you talking about your saddle and tailstock ways?

    Otherwise you would have one flat and one V way for both the head and tailstock, and you would want to make sure the kingway is riding on the appropriate pair of ways. If you have the slotted foot on the saddle V way and the ball foot (with or without bushing) on the tailstock flat you are adding unnecessary variables into your detective work.

    You are more than likely going to see less wear (closer to original surface) on your tailstock ways, unless something went very awry somewhere in the machines lifespan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon73 View Post
    Im thick with cold atm Mat so extra slow today . Are you talking about the areas between the V/flats? Looking for twist? Just use a level on parallels making sure the level is square to the bed and that the bed itself isnt moving excessively.
    yes, thats where Im heading - only I will make a sled to keep it all squared up.
    Hope you get over the cold quick -mines dragged on since 26th Dec. Its like a hangover which I didnt drink to get ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex King View Post
    I'm trying to envision your setup here? When you are talking about the narrow face and wide face are you talking about your saddle and tailstock ways?

    Otherwise you would have one flat and one V way for both the head and tailstock, and you would want to make sure the kingway is riding on the appropriate pair of ways. If you have the slotted foot on the saddle V way and the ball foot (with or without bushing) on the tailstock flat you are adding unnecessary variables into your detective work.

    You are more than likely going to see less wear (closer to original surface) on your tailstock ways, unless something went very awry somewhere in the machines lifespan.
    Sorry it wasn't clear - when I added the comment I lost the diagram to refer to . Its surface 5,6 and 8,9 - the original machined flate surfaces not bearing surfaces. The ones I have initially used to assess for twist and wear down the bearing surfaces.

    I take you point about adding in additional variables and trying to avoid such.

    I think I am beginning to form a plan / approach

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    Have updated the pic to include C an D

    t13-end-view-1.jpg
    Last edited by Demon73; 01-16-2019 at 04:20 AM.


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