How to determine which surface to scrape first on a bed ways. - Page 5
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  1. #81
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    As I stated before. Why reinvent the wheel when it has been rolling around for centuries. As is Rebuilding machines. I understand people like to explore and try to reinvent ideas. As I said professional rebuilders have had success using the new machine builders geometry to measure from. On a lathe the Tail-Stock ways are the best way to follow the new machine builders geometry. under the headstock and the area under the chuck is original and 99% of the time the Tail-Stock ways behind the Tailstock position or far right is the original new machine builders geometry.

    I would home in on those ends and the area between the ways that are clearance surfaces, but were machined at the same time the wear sides were. Once you document these unworn surfaces you can make up a game plan to start to scrape the lowest or more worn areas using a scraped cast iron straight-edge or lapped granite straight edge to transfer its master surface to the worn area's. I teach a straight-edge is a portable surface plate. You manufacture or scrape it to a Grade A, AA or AAA plate or gage. Once the worn areas are flat to the portable master, you scrape the unworn areas to the newly scraped surfaces that were originally the most worn.

  2. #82
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    Theres no new ideas here Rich.

    Check wear.
    Establish factory plain (as best as you can with the job in hand)
    Make a plan.
    Execute that plan.


    After checking wear numbers Mat took datums from unworn areas and checked, checked and rechecked to be sure they were true over the full length of the bed to the original factory alignment, he then took as little as required from each surface to rough them in one at a time, they where checked and finaled pair to pair. It may not be the way youd go about things but so what!? Mat got a top quality result, in sensible time using a considered approach and hard work, all under the watchful eye of an on site professional scraper hand with 40-50 years years experience under his belt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    The test in time will be the results.
    Yes, a logical comment!

  3. #83
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    I read he scraped the saddle bed ways first indicating from worn TS ways....We scrape the TS ways first. Then the Saddle ways, indicating from true TS ways. Less thinking and less change of Goofing up. Faster . Someday after doing things backwards you guys will figure it out. You may have got good results but 2 times longer then the old fashion way. Many ask for help and never listen.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    I read he scraped the saddle bed ways first indicating from worn TS ways....We scrape the TS ways first. Then the Saddle ways, indicating from true TS ways. Less thinking and less change of Goofing up. Faster . Someday after doing things backwards you guys will figure it out. You may have got good results but 2 times longer then the old fashion way. Many ask for help and never listen.
    Thank you for your valuable input Mr King.
    I am sure that your intentions and advise are well placed if perhaps a little tardy. It is clear that you have missed the point about the reasons for the plan / sequence I followed. But I am sure that those reading this thread and others within these pages will reach their own conclusions.

    Many only offer help once the job is done, others when it is needed.

    All the best

    Mat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    I read he scraped the saddle bed ways first indicating from worn TS ways....We scrape the TS ways first. Then the Saddle ways, indicating from true TS ways. Less thinking and less change of Goofing up. Faster . Someday after doing things backwards you guys will figure it out. You may have got good results but 2 times longer then the old fashion way. Many ask for help and never listen.
    Then you read it wrong Richard!
    Mat took the saddle flat way first only to aid bringing in the TS ways, the saddle ways were then worked from true TS ways! Why go this route? Because he was smart enough to see the opportunity of a verified datum in the saddle gib surface in this particular situation, and the simply measured process to bringing in the remaining surfaces. No guessing required, just basic common sense.
    An open minded 'pro' would be indifferent to the approach, I can say this with confidence because of the 4or5 pro's whove been keeping tabs on Mats efforts, only one has taken issue, but then only one has an agenda.

    Noones done more for the scraping forum imo than you Richard, but your attitude sucks at times! Especially to non children or anyone who doesnt pay you the homage you feel you deserve. It costs you Rich, as it costs the forum!
    Last edited by Demon73; 06-02-2019 at 11:44 AM.

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    Demon, relax...your about to have an egg. I remember when you were a rookie too...made some mistakes and grew...hopefully the readers have learned something here. There was no need in my opinion to use the back flat way first. The way I recommended is they way it was taught by my mentors and their mentors...generations of professionals. I was passing it on to the internet and not only you 2 with what 5 years experience together? I just want folks to learn a good way and not a guess way. The first post was a question on how to scrape on bed ways and I felt your way was not the way most who get paid to do it would do it. I am happy it worked for you 2. Time to move on don't you think?

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    There are many ways to skin a cat, just dont find the worst way...

    Richard, you share what you think is best and for 99 percent of the world you are probably right, I wouldnt argue with you. But there is a difference between submitting your opinion and belittling others. We speak of this often but you dont seem to learn.

    One of my mentors told me you praise in public but punish in private. But I am not doing that anymore with you. Richard you must be tolerant of others opinion, you cannot use this forum to belittle or demean others just because they want to try something different. I know you want to steer people in what you believe is the best direction. But people have to learn from experience and mistakes too.

    Trying to put down other people for their advise and belittling their experience in the process is purposely hurtful and unnecessary.

    Despite the respect I have for you and what you offer here freely and what you bring to the students in your classes you can at times be TOXIC.

    An apology to Deamon73 would be a good start, Richard the ball is in your court.

    Charles

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurk View Post
    I kept a track of the hours spent - just for interest. The first face was the saddle flat - which took c 14hrs. The next was the Tail Stock Flat, that took c 12hrs. The inverted V of the TS each face around 9 hrs, and a little less on the saddle V. All in - 40 hrs. I could spend another 10 hrs refining the faces and PPI - but at this stage I am calling it done. End to end, running the metric clock along its within +/- 0.005mm
    VERY useful information, those hours logged.

    Thank you for making that extra effort!

    Even if .. it takes me three times as long.. or four...

    .. it gives a real-world guide vs the cost of separating bed & base, freight to and from a grind shop, their fees, then reassembly.... plus-plus.

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    I'm offering my opinion Charles and wasn't trying to be little anyone. If you or they took it that way I apologize. To many people get offended to much now a days. If you check back in my posts I use the term skin a cat all the time. As long as you can skin a cat in the relative same amount of time. As far a Demon goes, he and I have met in person and I have admired his push for knowledge and doing the best job he can do. If this isn't good enough then see you later. Rich

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    VERY useful information, those hours logged.

    Thank you for making that extra effort!

    Even if .. it takes me three times as long.. or four...

    .. it gives a real-world guide vs the cost of separating bed & base, freight to and from a grind shop, their fees, then reassembly.... plus-plus.
    I was surprised that it didnt take longer. I wasnt ploughing away at it, I have learned the important lesson about not being able to replace what you take off and my 'guide' Chris is super critical of 'holes' left from overly deep scrape marks, even one scrape of half a thou' deeper than the others means the entire face has to be dropped down (so its right in his view), I very quickly learned that a consistent scrape is far better than a few heavy and a few light scrapes. It is a different approach to the actual scraping that I undertook on the shaper (straight scrape line rather than the half moons), in my view it has resulted in less time scraping and less material removed - just that simple lesson learned by doing it has made the bed re-scrape hours more than worth the effort.

    If there is one thing that help a huge amount - it was the light weight straight edge working with the support blocks for printing. It just made the entire process quick relatively effortless and most important repeatable. Its not easy to explain, thats why I made sure to show it in the video. Not rocket science by any means.

    As Charles states, there are more than one way of skinning a cat and I feel this experience has added another tool to my box.

    Cheers
    mat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    One of the important things I teach in my classes. Is to be a detective and measure everything. If you are trying to keep everything co-planner or original. Scrape the worse or most worn place on the two riding ways in the same system.. Or sat the Tail Stock ways or the saddle ways. You scrape the most worn to scrape the it to the bottom of the wear and then scrape the opposite side to the same depth to keep the ways co-planer.


    There are other things to consider if the ways are longer and you have a shorter riding part then you can correct the geometry with the shorter matched fit side in some cases. But to answer the question generally. Like the top of a knee on a milling machine and you need to keep the knee square to the column ways then you scrape the most worn side first and then scrape the opposite side or less worn last.
    Ah, this is just what I needed. I'm trying to relieve a Sheldon lathe saddle so it doesn't rock. I was concerned that I seemed to be doing more scraping at the areas that were also the most worn. This seemed odd.

    I think part of it is that the wear is convex and the chord of that curve is tilted toward the wear, so the scraping starts at the high point of the curve which is nearer the head stock. (I am not concerning myself with alignment at the moment, but I think bringing the plane of the cross slide parallel with the plane of the bed ways would require removing the material I'm leaving at the tail end of the saddle.)

    Then for the v way, as the back side of the V wears it is taking the load that used to be on the front side of the V, which is why there was no blue on that side until I'd done a bit of scraping on the back side. So I'm scraping the worst part first and then bringing the less worn parts into conformation with it.

    Richard King, thanks for your many posts on here explaining the process. I've been reading through quite a few of them in the last couple of weeks.

  14. #92
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    I have accepted a request to rebuild a Leblonde lathe today and will start a new thread showing everyone how I scrape a lathe. The job will start around June 17 - I decided Semi retirement is to boring between classes and I have a contract to rebuild several lathes over the next 24 months. I will do threads here and on my Facebook page. Rich

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  16. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    I have accepted a request to rebuild a Leblonde lathe today and will start a new thread showing everyone how I scrape a lathe. The job will start around June 17 - I decided Semi retirement is to boring between classes and I have a contract to rebuild several lathes over the next 24 months. I will do threads here and on my Facebook page. Rich
    Jolly good - I look forward to reading it and the many comments I am sure it will generate Mr King.
    If I might offer one small bit of advice about recording the exercise to avoid too many negative views being expressed. Do be sure to explain each and every step at the beginning, assume your audience has never looked at a lathe before yet alone considered rebuilding one and be sure to include your assessment of the lathe condition and how this determines each step.

    All the best

    Mat

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    I plan on recording it and posting it here, Facebook and You tube to get the way pro's do it. There will be no confusion. I will buy a new camera and tripod. Your way worked but your still learning and I hope to show many tricks of the trade you have yet to learn in your short career. If you have a weeks vacation coming up fly over to Austria where I will be teaching 3 classes in October and November. I posted the info in another thread. If you can make it I will I will work out a special price for you.

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