How Good is Good when rebuilding and scraping - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Getting back to the subject, "How good does it have to be?" Look at all the worn out machines making good parts. I always say you can see a good machinist if he is making good parts on clapped out machines. When a machine builder is making a new machine, they follow the new machine spec's found in a Schlesinger book, ASME standards, JIS, etc.

    How Accurate Is Your Machining Center? |


    Modern Machine Shop
    .

    If you own a machine rebuilding company as I did we told our customers, "the machine will preform as good as or better then new" This was easy in my Dad's time as many of the machines were built during WW2, so they were built to last a short period of time, so the USA could win the war. Many of our readers on PM are new to rebuilding or some who come here for help. I say to them, How good do you need it? He is learning to scrape and his best with-out a skilled journeyman teaching him in person, with out the proper tools will not be able to get it as good as new, but will make it better then it was.

    We have many here I would consider "pro's" who can scrape and rebuild machines to new machine standards. Just think about it, a hobbyist buys a machine worn out of new machine spec's, but he is going to machine farm equipment needing repair. He doesn't need tenths precision. If they hold .001" they are will with-in the spec they need.

    A few years ago while teaching a class at Keith Ruckers shop in Tipton GA. He had a Leblond lathe with a hard bed. We checked it out and I believe it was worn .004" near the chuck. He decided he could live with it as he could file out any wear errors. He bought the machine for $2000.00 and if he took it apart and had the bed ground he figured he would spend $25,000.00 Even with a perfect rebuild a 1940's Leblond would sell for $5000.00 So that machine was good enough to him. So the point I am trying to make, is. If you buy a machine and your a hobbyist or even a Journeyman Machinist what do you Need to make the parts your making?

    You may have the skill level of Sip as he has been in the machining business for over 1/2 his life, like me. He knows his stuff and he can make perfect parts on a worn machine. I am sure he would prefer to have a new machine.

    This is a forum about rebuilding and scraping. I am writing to thousands and not a few here. I am trying to make a point, not start an argument with anyone. I wish more will be written about machine scraping and questions from legitimate members who need help, not some knucklehead with nothing to do but read and write here.

    I am hoping the experienced members would start new posts to teach the new rookie members even if they don't ask a question.. Pass on your knowledge before you drop dead.

  2. #22
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    Thank you for the knucklehead. At least capable of distinguishing between then and than

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  4. #23
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    Mechanola....I may not have perfect grammar, but I do have this...Scraping Class 2019 with Richard King - BIAX


    and this. KING WAY Scraping Classes (English) - YouTube

    Let's see your credentials and your class info on scraping. Or sign-up for an Austrian class and learn how. They have classes this fall in Austria.

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    Give it a rest...

  6. #25
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    Thank You Mark.

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechanola View Post
    No, it’s for Richard King and the perfectionistic psychiatrist. Typical amateur error to overdo.
    Those are sort of fighting words. Do you not see that?
    Disrespect up front. Not always in agreement with Mr King on all stuff but respect.
    This guy is no some random internet idiot. I do not think him a perfectionist and the argument would be opposite.
    A good balance but a little rough and flighty IMO.
    Trash as wanted but this guy knows things that very few on the planet do. I can not understand basic fights over qualifications or name calling.

    Bob

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  9. #27
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    Lets just stick to the original topic, it is a good discussion lets not let our prejudices get in the way of useful content.

    I seem to remember a comment made a few years ago supposedly a Russian proverb, "Perfection is the enemy of good enough..."

    We all get stuck in our own battle over just how perfect we need to be. Sometimes we need the opinion of an another person to help keep us on track with what our goal should really be. The nice thing is that perfection isnt a crime, just a temporary affliction.

    Hope everyone has a nice weekend.

    Charles

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  11. #28
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    Name calling and general lack of civility aside, I find this to be a super relevant thread. During one of my past lives i had many engineers of all experience levels under my care. I used to tell them the most important question in engineering is "how do you know when you're done?" The topic of this thread is kind of like that. Invariably my customers wanted the best widget their money would buy and in some cases were reluctant to accept a product that was simply compliant with their requirements. This is very similar the topic of this thread. Most of us want the best machine we can get within the limits of our time talent and treasure. It's good to be reminded that there is a point when you need to call it done.

  12. #29
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    Thank You Charles and Marka.

    What Marka said, It sort of reminded me when we did some machines for Control Data years ago. We were rebuilding some Do-All Slicer Dicers that we rebuilt. The cut wafer bars with diamond wheels in the electronics field. Or they did, not sure anyone still uses them. They were also called a creep feed. Anywho, They wanted us to paint them Ivory White, I said why Ivory White? The fellow said I want my shop area to look like a laboratory. It to another week to do the job, he didn't care how much it cost. It was a pain and a year or so later, I was out there quoting on another job and saw the white machines. They were dirty and the foreman who wanted them white was gone, they fired him because he ordered the white machines. lol...

    Most production shops wanted a "rebuild" and not a Rebuild with paint job. I started to brush and roller paint the machines though after I delivered (I was the truck driver too, when you own the company you do everything) a W&S Turret Lathe and as they unloaded it the rigger called over the operator and he said "there that piece of (you know) S__t. I figure he saw the outside and not what was inside. He had a negative reaction.

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  14. #30
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    To paint or not to paint is also an interesting question. One one hand, one could argue that when a machine is completely disassembled is the perfect time to re-paint it. I myself had this conversation with myself as i am in the (painfully slow) process of what i hope to be a proper functional restoration of a 1941 Monarch 16CY complete with a bed regrind. When i had the apron down to the bare casting it took all the will power i could muster to not strip the old paint and apply new paint and primer. However, the apron is just a small part of the machine and after consultation with my brother, a machinist who has operated professionally restored machines, i decided against it. His point was "they all leak and in a year the new paint will be peeling just like the old". Even if this was a bit of an exaggeration his point remains valid. It's a huge amount of work to strip the old paint and properly apply new and it doesn't make the machine perform any better. The machine will just get covered with oil, grime and swarf anyway. I decided to put my energy into proper cleaning and functional restoration. When complete, the machine will look just as gnarly as it did when i bought it but it will be clean, properly lubricated and, I hope, will be more accurate.

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  16. #31
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    The rigger's reaction can go deeper.... "it's a piece of crap, so run it like yah stole it"..... can lead to a lack of maintenance, even lack of oil. Seen it happen.

    And folks who do not understand see a nice clean paint machine and think it works as well as the paint looks... The ebay "rusoleum rebuild" works on many, including purchasing agents.

    As for how good is good, it needs to meet customer requirements. That may mean that the scraping is better than the rest of the machine, feedscrews, etc, but if that is what is wanted/requested, it can be done. Seems silly, but like the white machines, you do what the customer wants.

    Some stuff on a mill is worth getting quite accurate, if you can... other things no. Very irritating if a mill has a tram error scraped-in.


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