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Determining if lathe spindle bearings need replacing??

challenger

Stainless
Joined
Mar 6, 2003
Location
Hampstead, NC-S.E. Coast
I am chasing a chatter problem in my 1955 Sheldon EXL lathe. I have the bearings out and I cannot tell if they are bad or not. They are taper roller type and are original to the machine made by Bower. I am a member of the Sheldon yahoo group but I generally use my phone for forum activities and the yahoo groups are pathetic, annoying, cumbersome, irritating and of no use in a mobile phone platform. I don't see any pitting or obvious wear but they do have a line or two visible in both the race and the roller bearings. They also have a frosted finish and not the bright shine that new bearings have. This goes for both the races and rollers. Is there a way for me to tell if I should put these back or if I should order new ones. The later will make my ass ache because I just put new bearings in a Burke horizontal mill last week. Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks
 
To quote a movie, "when there is a doubt, there is no doubt..." If you think they might be bad then you should replace them.

Just FYI, I am going to let this question ride for a few days. However, the rules I set up for this subforum are for reconditioning machine tools and not just for replacing OEM parts like bearings or small parts. But there might be some good discussion on the inspection of bearings so we will let this go and see what comes up.

My original statement is still my recommendation, as long as you already have them out, if you think they might need to be replaced then you probably should go ahead and do it.

Charles
 
Before I would run off and replace them, I would want to know where the chatter issue was coming from.

Did these bearings have the correct preload on them?

Did the spindle rotate smoothly?

Did you check the spindle for endplay and runout?

Does the chatter have definite pattern or is it somewhat random?

Are there signs that the bearing cone is loose on the spindle or the race loose in the head bore?

Without these answers you will be replacing the bearings and still probably have the same issues.
 
I know this sounds pompous and condescending, but here's from a fellow with over 50 years as an all-around manual machinist of widely diversified experience, a journeyman level trade instructor who's taken several factory bearing classes among others, and served several years as a machine tool rebuilder: spindle bearings if adjusted properly are the last thing to go wrong in a machine tool. They are easily the most accurate and robustly designed elements that can be stuffed into the available space. Spindle bearings sell the machine: it's the last place a machine tool manufacturer will scrimp.

Certainly the spindle bearings should be checked as a matter of course when evaluating a machine tool new or used for purchase or annually as part of the PM program. Unless they have been through a building fire, flooded under water, suffered careless contamination (tool post grinding followed by a compressed air blow-down, for example) or suffered a catastrophic failure as a result of being dropped inverted from a crane to land on the spindle casting itself it is doubtful the bearings are at fault. None of these failure modes will result in actual chatter.

Chatter is very seldom a bearing problem unless the pre-load adjustment has been slacked off by a criminal amount. Spindle bearings are the scape-goat of last resort for inexplicable machining problem; problems whose origins are usually within control of the man on the machine. If he were to step back, look at the whole problem, examine all the variables, then forget about it overnight if time is an affordable luxury, or, if not, get involved in something else for a time. The object is to let the very much cleverer subconscious mind solve the problem the analytical mind cannot.

I bet you will find the solution among the usual suspects: tool overhang, part flexibility, work support, tool geometry, etc.

Then there is the question of what is "chatter" All unwanted indications in a turned surface are not chatter. There is "telegraphing" where the shadowy unmeasurable suggestion of a spindle gear tooth count, tick marks from a damaged gear tooth, etc registers in the turned finish. There is "phonographing" where machine vibrations are recorded by the tool feed marks in the turned surface - single phase motors a frequent culprit in smaller lathes. Irregularities caused by failing rolling element bearings; this problen has too many visible manifestations to go into here but they are rare and only grossly exhibit in the final stages of bearing failure.

There are other causes of finish defects but in the parts manufacturing world, "chatter" in a machined finish results from self-excited oscillation in a mass/compliance couple such as an extended boring bar, a keen edged tool, limber part, and part material having suitable characteristics. The same phenomina are at work in a bowed violin string. The components of a self excited oscillation are mass, compliance, exitation, and resisting these are damping. Changing any one of these factors changes the chatter or eliminates it.

Many solutions leading to elimination of chatter are available to the canny worker: increasing the feed rate (increasing damping), reducing RPM (reducing exitation), shortening overhang (raising resonant frequency), changing tool geometry (reducing exitation), supporting the part (increasing damping and/or increasing resonant frequency). Sometines it's enough to lean a no-bounce hammer against the work or touch the top of the tool with the end of a copper rod, or hang a thick heavy washer on the end of the boring bar.
 
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Did these bearings have the correct preload on them?

Yes they were preloaded correctly as best as I could get them. I had the spindle out a couple of years ago and when I put it back I did a lot of research on preloading bearings that have been run in. I set them and ran the lathe checking the casting for temperature. When it got a bit warm I backed off maybe 1/8 turn and rechecked.

Did the spindle rotate smoothly?

Rotating by hand, yes the spindle felt smooth.

Did you check the spindle for endplay and runout?

Yes I checked both. Maybe. 0005" TIR and the same end play. I read about checking by prying the spindle nose with a 2X4 however I didn't do that. I had been hearing noise from the front bearing and saw the oil fill was very low. I filled it by removing the little oil cup and squinting oil directly into the port. The silenced the bearing noise but I saw metal chips come out with the excess oil and this really concerned me. I knew the spindle was easy to remove so I decided to inspect them.

Does the chatter have definite pattern or is it somewhat random?

I don't do a lot of work with this lathe. I am just a hobby lathe owner. Recently I've been trying to make an Arbor for my Burke horizontal mill and it seems no matter what I do I can't make a cut without a huge amount of chatter. I'm turning between centers. I have a a three jaw that I use for the spindle side and I cut a new center each time I use it for turning between centers and I have a l very center in the tailstock. The stock is 12" long mild steel and I'm using hss tool bits. I've tried several bit profiles. In addition to the chatter I've been having other problems while doing this project such as not being able to remove the piece from the centers and putting it back without finding the piece has several thousandths run out. This is without changing anything. I've re-turned the center in the chuck, checked the live center, made sure the tailstock is centered and everything else I could think of and the spindle bearings were on the list of suspected sources of chatter.

Are there signs that the bearing cone is loose on the spindle or the race loose in the head bore?

It is a L00 spindle so the cone is part of the spindle. The races are all tight in the casting.

Without these answers you will be replacing the bearings and still probably have the same issues.

I know this is true but I am, I hate to say it, at the last source of trouble I can think of.
Thanks for the reply.
 
Been there myself. Turns out it was insufficient preload, or in the case of our machine, excessive clearance, since the bearing in our machine do not need a real preload, just almost zero clearance, being cylindrical roller bearing with expanding inner race.

And a terrible terrible chuck.

Fixed that, loads better.

There are still a few things wrong with the Spindle, but that has to do with the utterly horrible design of old Weiler spindles and cant be resolved overnight.
The Spindle doesnt even have a proper seal to keep chips outta the bearings. And the bearings are grease lubed. And that IS factory original design. Horrible, yet the bearings somehow survived the blatant abuse, we did NOT have to replace them, despite the machine being in a rather dodgy state after we got it first.

I don't have 50 years of experience, but since my results match Addys, id tend to agree. Apparently spindle bearings can take a lot more than people give em credit for.


Edit: Just saw your new post. Well. 12 " between centers. What diameter ? A recut center in the Chuck not giving decent runout...wh00t...thats odd...dodgy chuck perhaps ? Seen chucks which would not grab worth a shit.
 
I like these answers. On my Burke the front bearing ended up having pitting in the inner race so I feel I had to replace these. On this Sheldon I don't see any pitting or other major damage. Just some very light scratches on the bearings and race. I am going to put them back, I the think, and try and figure out the chatter and the inability to get repeatable mounting of this piece I'm working on.
I'm pretty lost but approaching the issue(s) by chasing my tail isn't a good thing.
Thanks
 
I would be seriously looking at your chuck. Is the chuck adapter plate tight and not moving?

I had a problem similar to this on a Monoset grinder that I was responsible for. The very talented machinist that was running the grinder was having a terrible time with the part going out of perpendicularity and out of round. Was sure the part spindle had bad bearings. The setup he was using was a special fixture that was fabbed for doing these parts. Problem only occurred with the larger parts of the group, carbide inserts brazed to a honing sizing plug. Turned out to be a micro fracture in the weld that attached the fixture face plate to its shaft that went in the grinder workpiece collet. The face plate would only move if it warmed up a little and sufficient side force was applied. Oh and the bad weld was on the back side where it was not visible while it was chucked up. Took a long Saturday to figure that one out.

As obvious as it seems, when we have part issues, the work holding system needs to be looked at first and all possible potential problems need to be investigated. Again I will say investigate your chuck.;)
 
Yes they were preloaded correctly as best as I could get them. I had the spindle out a couple of years ago and when I put it back I did a lot of research on preloading bearings that have been run in. I set them and ran the lathe checking the casting for temperature. When it got a bit warm I backed off maybe 1/8 turn and rechecked.

Challenger,

If you backed off 1/8 of a turn on the nut, it was too much. On my EXL the nut is 20TPI that is 0.05" movement per turn so 1/8 turn would be 0.0065". That's just too loose and may be your problem. When I did mine I used the 32T spindle gear as a guide. It is much more accurate reference at 0.0016" per tooth. Scribe the nut with line and tighten against the 32T gear only 1 tooth at a time. Run for 15 minutes at 800 RPM each time. Allow to fully cool between cycles 1/2 hour. Repeat tightening 1 tooth until the headstock becomes uncomfortably warm to the touch after 15 minutes when you lay your hands on. Then back off 1 tooth and recheck.

This method worked for me on run-in bearings. Also assumes your oil cups are working properly and filled with ISO 46-68 Oil. Hope this helps.

Edit: Just want to add that the Acme nut on my EXL compound is a problem that will cause chatter. It was designed without a lot of rigid attachment to the compound. So I found that when parting if I turn my compound horizontally aligned with the bedways, chatter problems disappear. I still haven't fixed the problem with the nut as it operates without chatter in that position. But it's on my to-do list still.

Best Regards,
Bob
 
I agree that speed, tooling and overhang are probably the most common cause of chatter. If your workpiece isn't being held rigidly, or the tooling geometry is off, you can have chatter instantly. I also agree with checking your chuck - particularly the chuck adapter plate. Any movement here will cause problems.
 
I will check all of these things-thanks.
I'm adding a few photos of the bearings, races and general set up. I couldn't take a photo of the set up actually on the lathe for obvious reasons. The chuck does not use an adapter plate or at least I don't think it does. I'm pretty sure these chucks are built with the L00 integral back but I'm not experienced enough to say that's for certain.
I'm thinking of trying my four jaw when I put it back together. It is a much heavier and larger chuck. Could this help?
Is there a reason to use oil in the bearings as opposed to grease. They are set up for oil lubrication but I'm wondering if replacing the oiler with a zerk is advisable?
Is there a way to "zero in" on the source of chatter by ear? Mine always sounds like it is right at the rear of the chuck but I imagine the sound may not emanate from the source and may travel to a common place in/on the lathe.
Btw I've tried many cutter profiles with same resulting chatter.
Many thanks.
 

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I noticed the races have a different surface finish on the surfaces toward the fronts and rears as compared to the tops and bottoms. I guess this is normal as that's where the loads are yes? The bearing rollers look poor in the photos but seem fine in that there are no scratches that I can feel by touch.
 

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Your bearing pre-load was definitely too loose. You can see the top where the rollers were not making good contact and almost skating.

Looking at your chuck, are the chuck jaws properly in line with the supporting slide?

It also looks like the center you are using might have a slight taper to it. The work end appears to be polished and the end inside the chuck appears to be regular bar stock. Your center might actually be moving around in the jaws.
 
Challenger,

The bearing races look similar to mine when I had mine apart. The back bearing on mine had some tarnish from sitting for some time but I took a chance with it. When I did mine I cleaned the assembly with clean gasoline. Then fully oiled prior to assembly. The bearings on mine were Timken and etched with a date (something like 1-27-47 don't remember exactly). But the point is that the age of the bearings is not an issue if they haven't been abused. My spindle has less than 0.00003" radial runout and 0.00015" axial according to my Interrapid 0.0001" test indicator after I set the preload using the procedure I described. I was pleasantly surprised.

I have read a couple of times about folks that had to replace wrong class of spindle bearings. They complained of horrible chatter problems and found out that the bearings were correct number but not precision class. Your bearings should be marked with some indication that they are precision class 0 if they are original. On Timken bearings they were etched or stamped somewhere. Good luck with yours.

Best Regards,
Bob
 
Yes my bearings are etched with, I think, a "0".
Ill put it back together tomorrow.
The center in the chuck does indeed have an inconsistent diameter. It's not Tapered but it is turned down smaller toward the rear. The jaws are grabbing about the first 1" of the center shaft. Could this be the problem? I was going to mention this but I wanted to see if it would be discovered without me saying anything.
Thank much.
I'll return with good news.
I hope.
 
If you are going to use a center in the three jaw then just make your own out of a bar of steel. Use the compound to turn the 60 deg point and it will have a better chance of being concentric with your bore.

Charles
 
I will check all of these things-thanks.
I'm adding a few photos of the bearings, races and general set up. I couldn't take a photo of the set up actually on the lathe for obvious reasons. The chuck does not use an adapter plate or at least I don't think it does. I'm pretty sure these chucks are built with the L00 integral back but I'm not experienced enough to say that's for certain.
I'm thinking of trying my four jaw when I put it back together. It is a much heavier and larger chuck. Could this help?
Is there a reason to use oil in the bearings as opposed to grease. They are set up for oil lubrication but I'm wondering if replacing the oiler with a zerk is advisable?
Is there a way to "zero in" on the source of chatter by ear? Mine always sounds like it is right at the rear of the chuck but I imagine the sound may not emanate from the source and may travel to a common place in/on the lathe.
Btw I've tried many cutter profiles with same resulting chatter.
Many thanks.

it looks like the centerhole in the second picture is not touching other than at the edge
the same for the center which is only touching on a small line
i would blue it up and see if it has a good contactarea
 
There seems to me a few issues. 1) those bearings are shot, you said small chips flowed out when you oiled it....plus the one picture shows discoloration which makes me think the adjustment nut was loose. Also the surface under the bearing race looks like it's burred up. Buy some round and flat stones and stone everything; spindle, headstock, washers, gears, nuts by laying some 400 grit emery cloth on a surface plate and rub it flat or check for burrs. 2) Also I zoomed in on the tool bit, it looks chipped. 3) The drive dog V your using is is to small, cut off the sharp tip of your center as it maybe bottoming out in the hole.

4) I could discuss mounting the bearings, but that would be a long winded boring post. Go to You Tube and check out mounting a bearing on SKF sites and when your tightening the spaner nut, tighten it snug and them move it one notch. Mount a .0001" indicator on the back of the spindle (mag-base on the head-stock casting and use a small pry bar to pry the spindle back and forth to check end play. You want zero movement, best to leave it loose and slowly tighten it until you have zero. As I said before...tight them one notch more. Oh before doing that, buy a thread file and file the spindle threads and be sure the spanner nut moves smoothly as t's tightened before installing the bearings. Rich

PS: Test the spindle in V blocks to be sure it is straight. If you do not have them go to a local grind shop and ask them to check it for you. Might cost you $25.00
 
I don't know. Now my head is spinning.
I put it all back together and tightened the bearings and felt for heat. I tightened up the take up nut several times and never felt much more than a little warmth. I decided to leave it and maybe revisit this tomorrow because I started getting pissed off.
I am inclined to leave the bearings I have in the machine for a few reasons. This is after I adjust them more and maybe tighten them until they heat up or come apart or end up being OK which I hope is the case. Currently I can't determine that they are bad. Today, even though I didn't get the bearings to heat up, I think I have them tight enough where there is no end play so I'll run it and maybe tighten them a bit to see if they will heat up. There is so much discussion about how to tighten the bearings that I'm not confident in trying to get them hot and then back off but I have to decide on an approach and it seems this method will either work, if they are serviceable, or prove them to be bad due to the increased preloading I'm doing.
Another reason I'm looking to run these bearings is the conflicting opinions on bearing grades. If I could use the less expensive bearings that are for trucks, autos, transmissions etc I'd likely buy new ones tomorrow. I've read so many Web threads stating these will have a tolerance well above what the operator and the older machine would require and then so many that state use only the high precision grade because, "that's what the machine came with". People say today's "auto grade" bearings are as good as the precision grade bearings and made in 1955 when the machine was made???? One thing I can't do right now is spend $4-500.00 on bearings so it go cheap or use what's in the machine.
Regarding the previous post, the metal chips that I saw in the oil doesn't concern me presently. I didn't see anything in the bearings that make me think it came from them so I'm thinking they were from another source. Thanks
 
FWIW- on my Sheldon's I simply adjusted the bearings to zero endplay.
Had an indicator on the spindle face, tightened the collar until I got no movement by pushing back and forth on the spindle with my hands. Ran it for a while, rechecked, found a little movement,tightened again, and all was good.

Personally,I think a larger center hole on the driven end of your workpiece, a fresh cut center*, and balanced lathe dog would go far in improving things.

Don't let the "Titanium" ranking fool you though, I am the village idiot here. :)

* verify the scale on the compound
 








 
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