Just got a Harig 618 surface grinder! Questions inside :)
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  1. #1
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    Default Just got a Harig 618 surface grinder! Questions inside :)

    hey guys! just picked this up from a gov auction, going to get it monday so will know more then and I will have to get it up and running so I'm sure I'll have a ton of questions throughout that process... but I'm good at taking and posting pics and videos, so with your help I'm sure I can get through!!

    First off, I know it needs a magnetic chuck... does it matter which one I get or not, as long as it's 6x18? I think I will only need fine pole since I will only be grinding small thin parts (like knife blade blanks). I am leerie about picking up a used chuck as I have read that you can damage it if you grind it with the chuck 'off'. I found this but really don't know if it will work or not? I'm planning on grinding both sides of the chuck once I get it as described in the Harig 618 manual.

    I have inspected in person although not under power and it seemed well taken care of w/ oil still on the ways and such (smooth operation as well), but I didn't do any in depth examination or anything. But I am planning on changing out the way oil and the hydraulic oil for starters.

    It seems like Harig switched from their own motors to Leeson at some point, can anyone confirm this?




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    I'd be a little leery of "This" Really, he's sold 51 of them, but this is the "Last" one. Holy shit, you'd better hurry. It looks Chinese, so it's a safe bet you'll be disappointed.
    I would look for a used American made one.

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    So you don't think there would be any issues with getting a used chuck if I regrind both sides?

    Will any 6x18 chuck work? There's several brown & sharps available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razoredgeknives View Post
    So you don't think there would be any issues with getting a used chuck if I regrind both sides?

    Will any 6x18 chuck work? There's several brown & sharps available.
    Hi,

    A few things about buying a used perm magchuck... no reason not to
    But ideally you want to verify that it shuts off and
    Turns on as fully as possible.

    And you may or may not care about getting one that is fairly low
    Profile (if you’re doing knives you probably don’t care).

    I got a grinder with a B&S magchuck and found it didn’t turn off
    Well. Ultimately I pulled it apart and flycut the underside of
    The top to eliminate wear of the mechanism, and now it is great.
    BUT doing that on 5x10 is one thing, on a 6x18 is a bigger
    Job. So I mention this just to say make sure whatever you get
    Turns on and off!

    Phil

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    I would go for a used B$S. Sometimes the clamp mechanism gets gummed up with coolant/abrasive. Nothing a good cleaning wont fix. At worst you'll need to regrind it all, but that'll be a nice little project for your new grinder.
    There are some old threads on taking a magnet apart you'll want to read. No big deal if you take some precautions, but having 2 hales of a magnet slam together with your hand in between will ruin your day.

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    Thanks for chiming in guys! What do you think about this one? I don't like the "lip" on the back as it can get in the way but maybe that's normal or I can remove, any thoughts?

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    It's a personal preference between using a permanent magnetic or electromagnetic chuck, there's pros/cons for both. It's also personal preference using the type of chuck you linked that has "zones" as opposed to one that has many continuous poles like the B&S "Uni-mesh". I feel it all depends upon the work. The greater the mass of the work the less is required of the chuck. If you intend to mount long/thin knife blanks directly to the chuck, without a fixture, then I'd prefer the most magnetic field from a chuck. My personal opinion for that scenario would be an electromagnetic chuck with a variable control and a demagnetize cycle. That will be much more expensive so your budget may decide which you select. Another thing, that "lip" you mentioned is the backstop and SHOULD be included on any chuck you consider. It is a reference surface that locates your work parallel to the table travel so you don't have to indicate every time, just push something up against it and you're parallel to travel. It is also quickly removed via 3-4 small bolts that fix it to the rear of the chuck. It may not be important to you now but you will want it at some point. The uses of a surface grinder are many and ever grinder hand has an opinion, mine are above and should be considered an opinion from 25 years. One thing I would strongly suggest is to read all you can about safety with a SG because it's one of the more dangerous machines in a shop. Bad things can happen in an instant and the potential for disaster is not always apparent like on a lathe or mill. You'll also want some sort of dust control vacuum system to avoid breathing in the piles of airborne particles from grinding. A coolant system would also be nice but that's a different conversation. Good luck, hope this helped.

    Oh and one more thing, not all steels will stick to a magnetic chuck. The best example I can think of a knife maker may use is D-2. It may appear to stick but it won't hold very well and will move or launch from the chuck abruptly when it's tired of being ground. It has nothing to do with the mass either. Even larger chunks of D-2 (or 300 series SS) will NOT hold despite the small amount of residual magnetic attraction. Holding work on the mag-chuck so it doesn't move is of great importance for grinding.
    Last edited by AD Design; 09-06-2019 at 11:04 PM. Reason: Additional thought

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    Quote Originally Posted by AD Design View Post
    It's a personal preference between using a permanent magnetic or electromagnetic chuck, there's pros/cons for both. It's also personal preference using the type of chuck you linked that has "zones" as opposed to one that has many continuous poles like the B&S "Uni-mesh". I feel it all depends upon the work. The greater the mass of the work the less is required of the chuck. If you intend to mount long/thin knife blanks directly to the chuck, without a fixture, then I'd prefer the most magnetic field from a chuck. My personal opinion for that scenario would be an electromagnetic chuck with a variable control and a demagnetize cycle. That will be much more expensive so your budget may decide which you select. Another thing, that "lip" you mentioned is the backstop and SHOULD be included on any chuck you consider. It is a reference surface that locates your work parallel to the table travel so you don't have to indicate every time, just push something up against it and you're parallel to travel. It is also quickly removed via 3-4 small bolts that fix it to the rear of the chuck. It may not be important to you now but you will want it at some point. The uses of a surface grinder are many and ever grinder hand has an opinion, mine are above and should be considered an opinion from 25 years. One thing I would strongly suggest is to read all you can about safety with a SG because it's one of the more dangerous machines in a shop. Bad things can happen in an instant and the potential for disaster is not always apparent like on a lathe or mill. You'll also want some sort of dust control vacuum system to avoid breathing in the piles of airborne particles from grinding. A coolant system would also be nice but that's a different conversation. Good luck, hope this helped.

    Oh and one more thing, not all steels will stick to a magnetic chuck. The best example I can think of a knife maker may use is D-2. It may appear to stick but it won't hold very well and will move or launch from the chuck abruptly when it's tired of being ground. It has nothing to do with the mass either. Even larger chunks of D-2 (or 300 series SS) will NOT hold despite the small amount of residual magnetic attraction. Holding work on the mag-chuck so it doesn't move is of great importance for grinding.
    that is some really good and valuable info, thank you so much!! ok yeah I don't think I can afford an electro-magnetic chuck but I will keep an eye out for a fine pole one for sure. And that is really good to know about that lip on the back, very helpful.

    Yeah I've read about and do 'ring' the wheels to make sure they don't have any cracks but it's rare that I swap wheels out. I really do need dust collection, so thank you for pointing that out as it makes my shop really messy. I currently have a large shop air filter and use a 3M breathe easy PAPR when working but I do need a dedicated dust collection system for this for sure.

    I rarely grind D2 or 300 ss, but I will likely need to grind titanium which is non-magnetic... so I guess I will need to research and get creative.

    question on the motor... I will need to get a VFD, thinking about the KBAC 24D which is rated up to 1hp which is what this motor is. The only thing I don't know about is the KBAC says "It is designed to operate 208 - 230 Volt 3-phase AC induction motors through 3.6 Amps RMS." - I think this motor is rated at 2.6/2.8 FLA (full load amps). Is this compatible? Does anyone know?

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    If nothing else, rig an inexpensive shop-vac for dust collection until a proper system is purchased. You really don't want those airborne particles deposited on machine ways as it will act like lapping compound. Can't be good for you lungs either and stay in the air longer than you wear the mask. Do check the shop-vac for a paper filter on the inbound side that might catch on fire from the sparks. Titanium, in particle size, is supposed to be explosive so watch for small piles of it getting the spark stream. Can't answer your VFD question although I have one on my SG. There's a sub-forum for this on the board, do some reading. The "soft start" option on a VFD is beneficial IMO. Read all you can, grinding isn't something learned in a month or two. Good luck.

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    You may not like this chuck for thin or small parts.
    You block not so magnetic parts say carbide or ceramics. You do not always need a fine pole but small part and blocking placement matters.
    Advantages on electric chucks is more hold power, you can dial down the power and you can demag the part on the chuck.
    With a perm mag chuck you will want to buy a separate demag unit. This one is handy if your parts fit and works decent.
    Hand Held Non Contact Magnetizer/Demagnetizer - 98-264-5 - Penn Tool Co., Inc
    I have a few, with lots of use the switch in the handle dies but easy to replace.

    You need a VFD? I'll assume to make the three phase. If so you need to buy twice the HP as the working input is only connected to a part of the circuit.
    Check automationdirect. I use them on my Harigs and other grinders. Decades on these. They do get pissed off on overvolt at the inputs in a storm and shut down which can be a pain.
    Setting any VFD up on a grinder can be a fair amount of time with the manual. Not plug and play and the manuals are never clear or easy to read.
    You may need to wire in the start stop to the VFD if it is just running the spindle for speed so some basics of controls, voltages and how is needed.

    Plus one on the shop vac and maybe a few extensions so the noise of it is away from you and your work
    Now you are going to have to do wheels, grits and grades and the fifty ways of dressing and truing them.
    It all looks so easy in the videos............
    Bob

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    ok guys, I'm researching how to transport this thing this morning... there is a good pic in the manual about using a 3/4" bar through a hole near the base of the column, then a strap and chain:



    But from researching it it looks like I need to determine the types of ways I have... ball roller ways can have major issues not transporting correctly but I don't think my machine has that type. Can anyone help out here? I found this spec sheet which is helpful, I think the hydraulic automatic grinders have rack and pinion gears with "tool steel hardened ways" which it says on the table on the machine. I'm pretty new at this stuff and can't readily identify that and what the best way to transport would be - disassemble at all or all as one piece?


    Quote Originally Posted by AD Design View Post
    If nothing else, rig an inexpensive shop-vac for dust collection until a proper system is purchased. You really don't want those airborne particles deposited on machine ways as it will act like lapping compound. Can't be good for you lungs either and stay in the air longer than you wear the mask. Do check the shop-vac for a paper filter on the inbound side that might catch on fire from the sparks. Titanium, in particle size, is supposed to be explosive so watch for small piles of it getting the spark stream. Can't answer your VFD question although I have one on my SG. There's a sub-forum for this on the board, do some reading. The "soft start" option on a VFD is beneficial IMO. Read all you can, grinding isn't something learned in a month or two. Good luck.
    Ok thank you for that input, I can see that it is very important now and I'm glad I'm finding out about that now. Will definitely rig something up to get me by for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    You may not like this chuck for thin or small parts.
    You block not so magnetic parts say carbide or ceramics. You do not always need a fine pole but small part and blocking placement matters.
    Advantages on electric chucks is more hold power, you can dial down the power and you can demag the part on the chuck.
    With a perm mag chuck you will want to buy a separate demag unit. This one is handy if your parts fit and works decent.
    Hand Held Non Contact Magnetizer/Demagnetizer - 98-264-5 - Penn Tool Co., Inc
    I have a few, with lots of use the switch in the handle dies but easy to replace.

    You need a VFD? I'll assume to make the three phase. If so you need to buy twice the HP as the working input is only connected to a part of the circuit.
    Check automationdirect. I use them on my Harigs and other grinders. Decades on these. They do get pissed off on overvolt at the inputs in a storm and shut down which can be a pain.
    Setting any VFD up on a grinder can be a fair amount of time with the manual. Not plug and play and the manuals are never clear or easy to read.
    You may need to wire in the start stop to the VFD if it is just running the spindle for speed so some basics of controls, voltages and how is needed.

    Plus one on the shop vac and maybe a few extensions so the noise of it is away from you and your work
    Now you are going to have to do wheels, grits and grades and the fifty ways of dressing and truing them.
    It all looks so easy in the videos............
    Bob
    Thanks Bob! Yeah I have an old electric circular mag/demagnetizer already so I'm good there. But I think for now I wanna stick with a permanent magnetic chuck (both for cost and due to some negatives I have read about electric ones).

    Glad you mentioned automation direct, I have gotten motors from them in the past so am familiar w/ their products slightly. I do need it to convert from 110v single phase to the 220v 3 phase motor on the machine... Do you have a specific recommendation type? It's a little overwhelming trying to figure out even which category to look in under their VFD section lol.

    For the ad VFD I can see needing double but do you think I would need that if I got the KBAC? I use a KBAC 27D on my other grinders (larger motors) but it can step down to like 3/4 hp... but to do that you have to switch a jumper inside the box otherwise it will over power the motor and can ruin it (or so I was told by their tech support). So as long as I had that set correctly I would imagine it would be spot on unless I am taking a power loss. I will probably post in that other subforum here for help on this though.

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    response to the above ^^ is awaiting moderator approval for some reason .

    also, mine is missing the table switch... anyone have any clue why?

    nothing in the manual about it...


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    The bar is a good method, didn't know if your had the lift hole or not so I didn't mention it. I have a Mitsui that has similar provisions and used that to move mine, it's more secure than using a forklift and keeps the center of gravity below the lift point. As for removing the table AND saddle, mine has ball ways so I removed mine. Even if it has standard V-ways I'd not be comfortable with the table bouncing around during transport and would remove the table also. After removing the table, bring the head down (with no wheel mounted) until it just touches a block of wood to avoid the stress on the vertical feed screw/nut during transport. When the head touches the wood block, give it a bit more until you feel the feed screw "unload". Do NOT force this, just give it enough to feel the hand wheel go momentarily slack. Removing the table AND saddle will require two people but it's a worthy precaution. You're going to remove it at home for cleaning anyway so why not do it for transport. Don't know about your missing switch, was there an opening for it and it's now MIA?

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    Ok so got it loaded, transported, and in the shop!! I was able to get a hold of a long time Harig Technician (Jim Seyllar) who was extremely helpful (just like you guys!) but he can get any parts I will need for this thing which is awesome. He said that he thinks it's a '93-'94 year from the pics. The lack of a table on/off switch ^^ also indicates an earlier model.

    I did block the spindle during transport but wasn't able to remove the wheel (due to not having a spanner wrench). I also used forks on the bobcat instead of the lift bar which worked perfect, but I did block behind it to stabilize against the forks and protect the motors. went really well!! Had to reinforce the floor lol, but got it nice and level now and starting to clean up.

    During transport when we tilted it back a bit hydraulic (?) fluid started spilling out of the back of the table... not sure if that is normal or not but now there is a pool of oil under the stepper motor, have to figure out what's going on w/ that.

    Also, I picked up a used Walker magnetic chuck! unfortunately my table T slot isn't compatible off the bat so I will have to get the correct clamps, in the process of contacting them now for that. Anyway, started cleaning this thing up and have to get the VFD ordered, then switch out fluids etc.






    Here's where it leaked oil (and a few other pics)


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    I am probably wrong but this picture makes me wonder if the casting might be cracked under the paint. Or perhaps it is just "steps" from the casting pour. Is that a bead of silicone rubber or similar running down from above?

    Quote Originally Posted by razoredgeknives View Post

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    I am probably wrong but this picture makes me wonder if the casting might be cracked under the paint. Or perhaps it is just "steps" from the casting pour. Is that a bead of silicone rubber or similar running down from above?
    there's supposed to be a dust cover over this area (missing, so will have to order). I think this is normal because that thing to the left of the red circle there is a sump pump according to the manual. The cup on the right in that pic actually opens up straight into this sump area. Here's a couple more pics. but yeah the silicone goes up behind the dust cover for the lead screw, not sure if that's normal or not?

    Can anyone else who has a Harig 618 confirm?



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    It may be used to guide the oil from the column back into the sump. I used the same technique to control oil drainage on my Harig 6x12

    skipd1

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    Quote Originally Posted by skipd1 View Post
    It may be used to guide the oil from the column back into the sump. I used the same technique to control oil drainage on my Harig 6x12

    skipd1
    ok yeah I think it is supposed to be there, I believe you are correct. Gonna go ahead and order the dust collector to cover it.

    __________________________________________________ ___

    Anyone have any ideas for the coolant tank/pump? apparently it was cut out and removed before I got the machine. A new one is about $1100 and I'd rather just get by even w/ a 5 gal bucket and pond pump if necessary. But it would be nice if the tank could fit in the opening...



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