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Kingway question/idea......

JST

Diamond
Joined
Jun 16, 2001
Location
St Louis
I use my "Kingway copy" just for checking alignments (I do not use, or even have, level fittings for it.). I find it to be a super tool, and I will be making a larger version, as I get into larger work where it needs stouter bars, and a larger "tube foot".

When I check alignment, I use a DTI with a "normal" ball end lever, something in the 1/16" to 3/32" diameter range of ball. I have several DTIs for it, 0.001", 0.005" and a 0.0001" per division. Of course, when moving along the surfaces, there is a fair bit of "bounce" as the DTI picks up all the scrape marks and high spots. I pretty much "eyeball" the range, and make sure that my "eyeball average" looks like it is where it should be. And apparently that is working, so maybe I should not mess with it.

But, I get to thinking that just like the "round "button foot" for the ball end of the Kingway,. some sort of "foot" for the DTI ball would average out the scrape marks and show the surface much more the way the mating surface contacts it. Might avoid some of the "eyeball averaging" and show small trends better.

One factor against it is that the DTI is fairly delicate, and I am leery of "attachments" or gizmos that the arm needs to drag along. Another might be just the hassle of needing 6 hands to get everything in place for some inconvenient checks.


Anyone tried that?

Was there really any advantage?

Reasons it's a bad idea?
 
Sounds like a good idea to me. Having a disk under the indicator point would average out must scrape marks. And I'd think something 3/8" in diameter and 1/16" thick with a little dimple in the middle might track right along after you've got it place. I've never tested the actual spring force on the points but I have to think that little disk wouldn't overcome it.
 
I just use a .1 thickness wear block from a gauge block set. Slide it along under the DTI. It does require an additional hand.
 
. some sort of "foot" for the DTI ball would average out the scrape marks and show the surface much more the way the mating surface contacts it. Might avoid some of the "eyeball averaging" and show small trends better.
..

Anyone tried that?

Stellite cutting tool blank, here. 4 or 5 mm. Chop saw to size, stone.
Won't bend enough to matter.

Dunno if cheaper than wear blocks or not - but I was already short wear-blocks and surplus as to Stellite, so..

A more pressing need is use of a more rigid structure for the fixture itself.

Thin rods, loaded in bending, have to be allowed to settle-out after any sort of displacement or loading. Some of the dial indicators I'd prefer to utilize are themselves of the relatively high displacement-force class as well. How much might that contribute to error?

"Everything" moves, of course.

It is just slower and harder to be sure of a repeated reference without triangulation or use of stiffer materials and shapes. Too "fussy" and labour-intensive as it is now.

Alignment tools being DIY'ed with (relatively) larger diameter structural members - such as thinwall tubing - seem to be a step upward toward faster and easier usability for any chosen accuracy target.
 
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There are a few things I have done over the years. The gage block technique Wes talks about. I have made a Nylon block about 1/4" long that has a hole drilled into it that presses(light) onto the indicator tip and use the average over the scrape marks. The Kingway is a delicate instrument and many never tighten the clamps enough and never stop it in the same direction each time. Meaning if your on the right end of the way and you slide it to the left. start and stop about 1/2" let the bubbles home or zero, then move holding it on channel and ball side. After it homes start to move it to the left and stop every 12" or so or move it all the way down the way and stop. I always say stop for 10 seconds and read the indicator or bubbles. Then when you return it to the other end move it back to the left 1/2 inch and stop. I always say to test it 3 times and average it out.

Another tip is to use a .001" in the beginning and as you get the ways closer then switch to a .0005" indicator. Then eyeball the indicator. In my opinion to many start with a .0001" and go nuts trying to measure a rough surface. If anyone has the Wayne Moore book "The Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy" He uses a .001" last word at first and then an electronic indicator. I would guess I have been using a King-Way longer then anyone on the forum. Over 50 years. Use them and not guess at using them.
 
I was thinking about this while checking the 72" straight edge. It gets tricky trying to divide the needle-bounce error from the actual bow/twist in the surface.

My dovetail measuring rig that I hope to expand into other applications (including a kingway) is using an old Federal indicator (similar to image bellow). It's one that's built like a short travel length indicator, but reads like a DTI in .0005" resolution. You can buy or make a lot more tip attachments for length indicators so It works well for the application. I haven't yet but plan to buy/make a 3/8" button tip for it similar to what comes with the old Starrett #196 indicator sets. If I need to reach under an edge, you should be able to make a rigid tab to attach to the end.
Federal-C81-C-Dial-Indicator-Gauge-001-2-Dial.jpg
 
I was thinking about this while checking the 72" straight edge. It gets tricky trying to divide the needle-bounce error from the actual bow/twist in the surface.

My dovetail measuring rig that I hope to expand into other applications (including a kingway) is using an old Federal indicator (similar to image bellow). It's one that's built like a short travel length indicator, but reads like a DTI in .0005" resolution. You can buy or make a lot more tip attachments for length indicators so It works well for the application. I haven't yet but plan to buy/make a 3/8" button tip for it similar to what comes with the old Starrett #196 indicator sets. If I need to reach under an edge, you should be able to make a rigid tab to attach to the end.
View attachment 240595

No need to make MUCH.

Besides the still-active makers, ISTR long Island Indicator's website shows a ton of OEM-built add-on fingers, levers, extenders, etc for many major-maker indicators or their (several) allegedly-"standardized" stems and tips.
 
My default indicator is a nice little British 0.0005 DTI called a "spot-on". I simply cannot make a "Last Word" repeat decently. Using the 0.0005 has all the advantages of using a 0.001", but it can be used for closer measurements also. I've only used the 0.0001" a couple times, but not for ways. Ways do not have (to me) the need, and they certainly will make that 0.0001" bounce a lot! Has its place, I guess. Maybe with averaging I could make it work better, but so far only wanted for working with measuring stuff... scraped parallels, didn't think I needed (or justified) that sort of precision for ways.

I find the DTI to be required, just to reach the places it needs to while still being able to see the dial decently. The "Spot-On " reverses like a :Last word, so it works in any position

Mr King, you are sure right about the clamps. I find you have to really torque on the knobs to get the thing rigid enough to repeat well. there is plenty ov leverage to want to shift around.

I never believe any measurement that I cannot repeat at least three times, and preferably removing and replacing the measuring device at least once in the process. If it was stable, it will go back to that stable place, otherwise it is suspect.
 
Moving the Instrument and stopping in different direction changes the bubbles more then the indicator. I use my Best Test .0005" the majority of times. I don't use a Last Word anymore, I was using that as an example that .001" doesn't bonce like a .0001". Were on the same line of thinking Jerry. :-)

Oh and a tip I learned from a customer of a King-Way clamp years ago. put a 2 washer needle bearing under the clamp screw so you can torque it a bit tighter. In some of the real McCoys I tell people to drill a 1/8" hole in the clamp so you can use a punch to tighten it a bit more. Another secret that none of the home made copiers don't use is undercutting the center of the clamp so when you tighten the screw it clamps on the ends and not in the middle.
 
Mine is under-cut - but only because you told me about it Richard :D

Here's a tip for making a good vee-way slider (the tube with a quarter cut out of it). Get a gas ram from an old office chair. The better quality ones use a thick-walled tube which is ground finish inside and out, then all you have to do is mill a section out and drill your hole. I got mine from an Aeron chair that had lost it's gas.
 
I've got a 1/8" thick slice of silver steel/drill rod that is surface ground on the 'working' face and has a spot drilled dimple for the indicator's button on the other one. Works perfectly.
 
I was talking about the middle of the post clamps :-) It is nice to see you two are still reading the forum, It seemed like many of you silent ones left. Pete I told someone from the UK a few weeks to email you about learning to scrape. Did you hear from him? He said he was about 2 hours from Battle... I sure would love to come back to the Golf course hotel sometime :-} drive up and see what's her name (Andrews friend, Miss Piggy)..lol... Maybe take a tour of London, Stonehenge, meet Mark, Tyrone and all the other historical sights :-) It sounds as if there maybe other Austrian classes in the future if I'm still kicking and want to do it.., even though I plan on cutting back a bit I sure would love to stop in the UK even of it's for a tour.
 








 
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