large format radius scraping

check out the scraping footage in rebuild of 2500 ton mechanical press

what standard is used to determine endpoint?


25 Ton Massey Forging Press Ram and Pitman Refurbishment. - YouTube

Now, that guy us getting a workout!

I watched all the videos. That's obviously filmed in England and I suspect in the Manchester area. I know a guy who's in that line of work. He occasionally contributes on here. I don't think that's his shop unless he's moved to bigger premises. The " Kearns-Richards " WB-50 Hor Bore you see in one of the videos doing facing slide work is just like one of his machines though.

" BS Massey " were a large engineering company based in Openshaw a suburb of Manchester. They specialised in all sorts of presses but a company I worked for used to send them sub contract machining work. They were another casualty of the mass de-industrialisation that took place especially in the North of England in the 1980's. The Government of the time made a concious decision that manufacturing was old hat and the service sector was the way forward. What you got then were guys who been made redundant from big companies like Massey's setting up little " man and a dog " companies to do repair work etc. That's what I suspect you're seeing here.

The thing you notice a lot when you visit these places is the age of the guys. You don't get many, if any, under 50 years of age. Well you reap what you sow. We'll always be able to buy new presses from China and India won't we ?

It reminds me a lot of places I've worked at. Big, cold, dirty and cluttered shops with machines as old as the guys operating them surviving because of the tremendously skilled blokes they employ.

Regards Tyrone.

Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I watched all the videos. That's obviously filmed in England and I suspect in the Manchester area. I know a guy who's in that line of work. He occasionally contributes on here. I don't think that's his shop unless he's moved to bigger premises. The " Kearns-Richards " WB-50 Hor Bore you see in one of the videos doing facing slide work is just like one of his machines though.

" BS Massey " were a large engineering company based in Openshaw a suburb of Manchester. They specialised in all sorts of presses but a company I worked for used to send them sub contract machining work. They were another casualty of the mass de-industrialisation that took place especially in the North of England in the 1980's. The Government of the time made a concious decision that manufacturing was old hat and the service sector was the way forward. What you got then were guys who been made redundant from big companies like Massey's setting up little " man and a dog " companies to do repair work etc. That's what I suspect you're seeing here.

The thing you notice a lot when you visit these places is the age of the guys. You don't get many, if any, under 50 years of age. Well you reap what you sow. We'll always be able to buy new presses from China and India won't we ?

It reminds me a lot of places I've worked at. Big, cold, dirty and cluttered shops with machines as old as the guys operating them surviving because of the tremendously skilled blokes they employ.

Regards Tyrone.

Click to expand...

Pretty sure that is the fella that posts on here ,I can't remember what his screen name was but I haven't seen him around lately ,hope he is OK .

What a coincidence! I also give free advice to others and not just here. Many know I am the international BIAX Instructor and teach scraping all over the world.

I just got a help request from BIAX Germany on how to scrape bronze bushings inside a power plant on a line shaft in Poland. They have 2 bushings that were replaced and are approx. 18" diameter and has caps too. The method the worker in Johns show is doing it the way I was taught when I was a kid using a spoon scraper. On Big Bushings I scrape today below is how I do it. I still use a spoon scraper and a small hook scraper for doing on smaller bushings say under 6". The bushing he shows looks as if the oiling system stopped working and heated up and scored. The black spot on the back was a hot spot. The galling or circular lines is much like the scores we see on flat ways that are created from lack of lube at first and then metal that breaks out.

An:
Cc: @biax.de>
Betreff: scraping of rounded inner surfaces - request for advice


I do not have much experience in scraping rounded inner surfaces as enclosed. (I left out the photos and changed the names a bit for confidentially of this. rk)

Is it possible to use our scrapers for such operations?

maybe, very narrow blades/plates are to be applied (max. 10 mm), with small radius max. 60mm? HM or HSS?

Our BL scrapers or hand scrapers?

Material to be scraped: bronze:
Von: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Gesendet: Freitag, 17. August 2018 16:12
An:
Cc: Alex King
Betreff: RE: WG: scraping of rounded inner surfaces - request for advice

-----------
what I wrote back:
From R. King

I would recommend the start using a BIAX Handscraper with a 1/2 moon flaker insert. R60 using the blade holder (s) KL-70 or KL140. Once they practice the checkerboard technique and understand how the blade works. They can use a BIAX Power scraper with a KL-170 extension holder. Tell then to start with a 9.5 to 12.7 (3/8 to 1/2") with a very slow motor setting.

They will attack the bushing from the 45 degree angle similar to the hands scraping technique I teach. They may have to design and use a blade holder with more depth to the bend and experiment with sizes.

Another important part when scraping big bushings (bronze bearings) is to examine the wear pattern of the old bushing. The shaft will have pressure or torque on certain sides or direction and those areas will wear more. Once they establish this they will remove more material in the NON wear places in 3 places so the shaft is setting on 3 points. The low areas will also be an internal reservoir for lubrication oil that will flow around the shaft. With a bushing that size I would think the 3 point pads would be approx 6" each of the radius of the circumference. They can do the math. (ha ha)

The BIAX 1/2 moon blade is ideal for scraping BIG Bushings like this, but takes a little practice to understand how to. The blades 60 mm bottom radius allows them to scrape in the center of the blade. If they use a blade like a 20-150 blade with a flat blade the blade will cut on the outside edges.

There is another option and it is called Timesavers Lapping compound. It was designed for the USA Navy so sailors could fit propeller shafts on large ships.

http://www.lappingcompound.co.uk/Timesaver Lapping Compound Booklet-4.pdf or http://www.newmantools.com/lapping/timesaver_booklet.pdf

After using the Timesavers you would still need to cut the bushing with the checkerboard pattern and make the 3 pads.

Tell them If it is an emergency my team could come and help them.

I hope this helps.

Rich

I've said before I used to do work for a Swiss mixing machine maker called " BUSS AG ". We did work on the gearboxes that propelled the mixing screws. The big ones looked like a large lathe headstock and weighed about 4-1/2 tons.

The bearings in the gearboxes were in the main antifriction ball and roller bearings but there were some 10" to 12" dia phosphor bronze bearings in the gearboxes. These sleeve bearing had the deepest scraping I've ever seen in a really neat checker board pattern style. I never did find out how it was done.

Regards Tyrone.

Were they split bearings? On big bearings be pretty easy to put the pattern in while flat then roll it into dimension.

PM member Johnny N is the boss man at the company on the video ,just remembered his name.

sable said:

PM member Johnny N is the boss man at the company on the video ,just remembered his name.

Click to expand...

Hes fine, though suffering from work overload though thats never a bad thing is it!

Iwas the last year of fitter apprentices at the firm(long gone) I trained at and im days away from forty five years old and the men that tought us were ancient thirty years ago.
Its fair to say its dying out and to be honest going into such a trade was a terrible mistake and with hindsight I wish id been a plumber. Much much better money and besides the odd turd better working conditions

BrianB said:

Were they split bearings? On big bearings be pretty easy to put the pattern in while flat then roll it into dimension.

Click to expand...

No they were solid cylindrical bearings about 3" to 4" wide by about 5/8" wall thickness by roughly 10" dia. The scraping was the best bore scraping I've ever seen.
The gearboxes themselves were a work of art. As well as revolving the extruder screw reciprocated back and forth. The big ends of the crank were white metal bearings. They used two of everything. Two oil seals on each shaft and two lube pumps, one high pressure for the screw mechanism, one low pressure for the gearing. Spare parts would be flown in overnight by " Swissair " and they fitted like a dream.
The stroke of the screw was varied by two large eccentric cams. On one job we had to replace the cams and the new cams came over but they were the wrong stroke. The Swiss guys in Basle wouldn't believe that they'd sent the wrong cams until we sent photos over to prove it !

They were lovely machines to work on.

Regards Tyrone.

pressbrake1 said:

Hes fine, though suffering from work overload though thats never a bad thing is it!

Iwas the last year of fitter apprentices at the firm(long gone) I trained at and im days away from forty five years old and the men that tought us were ancient thirty years ago.
Its fair to say its dying out and to be honest going into such a trade was a terrible mistake and with hindsight I wish id been a plumber. Much much better money and the odd turd besides better working conditions

Click to expand...

I used to be in contact with him but I suppose he's up to his eyeballs in work. I liked his attitude but I can imagine he's always thinking about the next job and hasn't much time for idle chit chat. I went over to his place in Hyde regarding that " K-R " wide bed 50 that's in one of the videos boring out one of the big bearings. I'm glad it's still going strong. A great machine if it's been looked after. The later machines were better milling machines but the old " wide bed's" could mill ok and still bore like a dream. I just hope the main bearings never go because I don't think " Timken " make them anymore.

Regards Tyrone.

Could it have been done by running a boring tool thru at a very high feed and then running the reverse to make an intersecting double screw pattern? That would produce diamond shapes though I think.

I confess to not paying enough attention to JHOLLAND1's text. My initial reaction to the first few photos in the video was "That's not a very big press". Then I realized I was just looking at the ram slide, not the body of the press. OK, yes, that's a pretty big press!

Nice looking rebuild. Hope it went back together in good order.

BrianB said:

Could it have been done by running a boring tool thru at a very high feed and then running the reverse to make an intersecting double screw pattern? That would produce diamond shapes though I think.

Click to expand...

No this was definitely scraping. I've been around scraping since I was 16 years of age. I know the difference.

Regards Tyrone.

BrianB said:

Could it have been done by running a boring tool thru at a very high feed and then running the reverse to make an intersecting double screw pattern? That would produce diamond shapes though I think.

Click to expand...

Scraping and scratching are different things

Tyrone Shoelaces said:

No this was definitely scraping. I've been around scraping since I was 16 years of age. I know the difference.

Regards Tyrone.

Click to expand...

You said they were deep so I figured maybe they were cut rather than done by hand. I am certain with your expertise you can tell the difference but without a pic it was hard for me to know.

I'm going back in the days before we all had cameras in our cell phones so I haven't got any photos unfortunately. It was a really neat bit of scraping. Inside the gearbox there were two brass pads that were scraped in the same style. I worked with the " BUSS AG " service engineer in the UK for a while and he told me one old guy built all the gearboxes back in Basle.

Regards Tyrone.

The white line at minute 1 35 I believe are chalk likes the drew in there before it was bored to clean up. No sound and all the quick pictures makes it hard to watch . I think the scraping he does at the end was for removing the machine marks and giving it oil pockets. From the size of the chip pile he must have had the spoon scraper razor sharp. I don't see in those later pictures bluing as shown in the first part. They left out some photo's probably an accident as I have started to make a album of pictures and forget to take pictures when your fixed on the job. A OH Sh_t moment. One photo showed blue on the bottom pivot smaller bearing. There are 2 big bushing...one 1/2 bottom pocket for more down pressure the the bigger throw bearing and cap.

The advantage of push scraping with a BIAX bottom radius blade like the 1/2 moon blade you can cut in some deep scrape marks. Pushing a spoon scraper like that all day long would wear out the normal scraper man out. We used to have a scraper that we used first to remove machine marks looked like a wood draw knife so you could use 2 hands and pull it.

In the old days we used a concave ground 1/2 round file and for a big job we used the biggest file we could buy. Then we would grind off the file teeth, heat to anneal it to red and bend the tip, grind the spoon shaped end, grind the concave while still soft, leaving the bottom so there was approx 1/8" flats on each side of the concave middle. Then we would heat it to cherry red and quench it in oil in a 5 gallon can, stirring as we slid it into the oil. Then we honed the sides and bottom to a razor edge.

A day of spoon scraping would wear you out. That guy is my hero...lol..he must have been or is solid muscle. I had an adventure when I was 22. My Dad got a job assembling a 600 ton punch press for Presto down in Alamagordo New Mexico that they had to take off the roof so we could use 2 cranes to assemble it inside the new building. Have to tell you-all how that job worked out. Going to make it a chapter in my book. I don't see any oil grooves cut into the bronze bushings, so in that case I can see how the original one looked so galled up. We use to cut 2 diamond intersecting grooves to distribute the oil after it pumped out of the groove in the iron and up through the oil holes in the bronze bushings. That maybe a forgotten photo, or they didn't want to give away any trade secrets and left that out on purpose. :-) Rich

I hope in your book you show pictures and the uses of all these specialized tools. "A Picture is worth a thousand words. " :-)

If I had a digital camera way back then, no problem. All I have now is my memory....sighhhh...like if I had a nickel for every beer I have drank I would be a millionaire...lol