Machine reconditioning as a hobby relative to other hobbies

There's been a fair amount of dialogue over a number of posts regarding how time consuming a proper functional restoration (scraping to original specs, bearing changes etc). Clearly when this question is discussed in the professional context it becomes a business decision to be evaluated as any other capital investment would be evaluated.

But in the context of a hobby restoration, a very different set of considerations apply. Hobbies by their very nature are irrational pursuits and trying to evaluate them by rational thinking is folly. From a technical perspective, there is no valid reason for sailboats to exist in any place other than the poorest of communities. But go walk around a marina sometime and you'll see plenty of irrational money being spent.

So, one way to approach the question is to compare vintage machine tool restoration to some other hobby like vintage tractor restoration or vintage car restoration and ask which is more demanding of one's time, talent and treasure? I've got a 1941 Monarch 16CY which i'm restoring at a glacial pace due to other commitments of my time. Some have argued it makes no sense from a time and money standpoint and that i should just look for a machine in better condition. If i were making a business investment, we wouldn't even be discussing a manual machine. So if we stipulate that the experience of the restoration process is the end in itself and not the means to an end, it's a very different conversation. Now, back to comparing my project with, say a vintage car restoration. As i see it, a machine tool restoration is a much less ambitious project. My monarch will never deliver more that 7.5 HP to the spindle, will never turn faster than 650 rpm, will never suffer the internal heat of combustion and will never require copious amounts of rusted thin sheet metal to be brazed or welded back into place and then fared smooth to accept high gloss paint.

As i see it, the challenge with machine tool restoration is wrapping your head around the machine's geometry, the ability to take careful measurements, the patience to take these measurements over and over again and the ability to handle the very heavy parts. Over all, i see it as much shorter timeline to project completion and a much less expensive proposition. Sure, no one is going to give you the thumbs-up at a gas station or ask you to ride in a parade, but that's not the motivation of a hobby machinist anyway.

Yeah...no one gives a fuck...restore your toy at whatever pace makes you happy. Most of the restore threads here are by hobbiests trying to impress other non machinists with their worthless shiny shitbox.

have a nice day

As a hobby, cheaper than golf and more useful. As a profession, I’d guess it’s a tough and frustrating way to earn your crust. Ask a pro?

Mostly a hobby guy here who cares about results and not appearances. There are people though who will pay up for spiffy looking Euro toolroom machines etc…..

To the OP, just enjoy the time in your shop no matter what you’re doing.

L7

plastikdreams said:

Yeah...no one gives a fuck...restore your toy at whatever pace makes you happy. Most of the restore threads here are by hobbiests trying to impress other non machinists with their worthless shiny shitbox.

have a nice day

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Ah, Practical Machinist.

Where the Milk of Human Kindness comes to be curdled...

Milland said:

Ah, Practical Machinist.

Where the Milk of Human Kindness comes to be curdled...

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Venezuelan Curdled Milk (Dessert)

Ingredients :

4 cups milk
1 cup sugar
the grated peel of one lemon or lime
1/4 cup lemon or lime juice, fresh

Instructions :

In a pot over high heat combine the milk and sugar, stirring until the sugar is completely dissolved.

Add the lemon peel and the lemon juice and cook, undisturbed, until it barely boils, being carefully that the milk doesn’t boil over.

Reduce the heat to medium-low and cook undisturbed for 30 minutes.

Turn off the heat and let stand for 10 minutes before serving.

Milland said:

Ah, Practical Machinist.

Where the Milk of Human Kindness comes to be curdled...

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I love milk, sometimes it goes bad before it's supposed to. Interesting surprise.

Milland said:

Ah, Practical Machinist.

Where the Milk of Human Kindness comes to be curdled...

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Says the man who wishes death to those who might hold a view different than his own.

Demon73 said:

Says the man who wishes death to those who might hold a view different than his own.

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Says the man who brings death as a Covid assassin. Ever notice that 'ol Boris almost died due to people like you? Not to mention the thousands of healthcare providers who did die doing their best to save idiots like you.

"Idiot". That word is far too pale for the likes of you...

Well i certainly didn't intend or expect for my little musing to generate this kind of vitreol and general lack of civility. Probably best for the moderator to just delete this thread.

what did you intend to achieve with this topic? I rered OP couple of times but still couldn't quite grasp where is the question

if you're restoring old machine tools as a hobby at it brings you joy, then so be it, why it needs to be discussed? and why it has to compare to other hobbies?

hobbies aren't a contest, it is meant as a "place" to rest your mind, some sit in lotus pose and hum, some make miniature furniture, others travel, there is absolutely zero necessity to compare any of them, enjoy the stuff that brings you joy and be happy

that being said - contesting anything might also be a hobby for few here that seem to have endless time to fight others with a similar hobby like them just of the opposite opinion, it is clear they'll achieve nothing apart from satisfying their own ego by speaking out, the only downside is that it annoys a lot of bystanders, which miniature furniture making, traveling or restoring old equipment usually doesn't provoke....

anyway, thread should be closed, lacks the OT at the least, and quite meaningless in its substance in general

Marka, I enjoyed reading it. I also had to read it a couple of times and to chuckle. What happened, generally is not seen in this forum now that Charles is back. If people would just teach and be kind to each other, wouldn't it make Practical Machinist GREAT again? I have learned to turn the other cheek and use the ignore button. These lonely insulting people made PM a far cry from what it once was. What's the point to swear and use foul words? I know I would love to meet some of these people, Many I would love to shake their hand, others I would love to punch them in the nose! LOL Just kidding Charles...LOL

marka12161 said:

Well i certainly didn't intend or expect for my little musing to generate this kind of vitreol and general lack of civility. Probably best for the moderator to just delete this thread.

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Oh no leave it open, the derail has begun and will spiral into another shithole.

Milland said:

Says the man who brings death as a Covid assassin. Ever notice that 'ol Boris almost died due to people like you? Not to mention the thousands of healthcare providers who did die doing their best to save idiots like you.

"Idiot". That word is far too pale for the likes of you...

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Short story is that restoring machines can be a hobby/business.

One fact is that you really do need to balance the value and work. I basically WILL NOT scrape any machine I restore for hobby types. They will not pay for it, and it's a lot of work.

How good?

Well as per the above, for hobby sales, make it "work", and hopefully not be to bad. The alternative is a chicom machine that was worse when built, so..... no scraping for them.

A machine to be sold as "better"? Well, I cannot find much of a market for the "better" used machine, so still no scraping for them... Not worth trying to sell that work. A few times someone has wanted it, and OK, then it can be done. Most don't like the price, a few were willing to pay up like gentlemen, and their work got done.

So that leaves the alignment and scraping-in stuff for myself, for my own machines. I did do a not-so good machine, a Benchmaster mill. Probably is better than it ever came from the factory, but still not chasing tenths on that one, it's a mill.... and not a very good one, but it was the first mill on which I did (had to) a full ground-up restore, improvement, scraping and alignment job.

Did it because I had the mill, and it needed either fixed or disposed of. Wish it had the 36" table, but not many of those around. It's done and in use. It really makes a difference in usability.

Was it "worth it"? Well, I now have a $2500 machine I can get maybe $800 for (it has both H & V setups). But, I'm not trying to sell it, I'm using it.

Kind of an "apprentice project", I guess. Good learning experience, not doing any more mills until I have a decent Biax.

I don't advise anyone in the "gee scraping sound like fun" category to start on a mill. It's more work than those folks want to do.

I have a Rivett 608 that I bought for a song, with all parts... dirtiest machine ever. Also worn, but not 'too" bad. That one is worth my best efforts, no matter that "plastikdreams" probably considers it a "shitbox". And it is getting my best efforts, which means it does not go fast. My problem, not anyone else's so I really don't care what anyone thinks. Both it and the Benchmaster are for use, not being a polished-up "hangar Queen".

marka12161 said:

Well i certainly didn't intend or expect for my little musing to generate this kind of vitreol and general lack of civility. Probably best for the moderator to just delete this thread.

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I hope he won't.

In any case, my apologies for the coarseness of my rebuttal to the Covidiot and the interruption to the thread. I really need to learn to ignore that fool, but it's a hot-button issue for me.

Milland said:

I hope he won't.

In any case, my apologies for the coarseness of my rebuttal to the Covidiot and the interruption to the thread. I really need to learn to ignore that fool, but it's a hot-button issue for me.

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When a crazy person walks into your shop do you invite them to the dinner table for a conversation, or kick them out? Use the ignore function for idiots and trolls.

I enjoy bringing old machines back to life, there were a few that I probably should have let go to the furnace, live and learn. As for hobbies in general, I find that people with creative hobbies seem to be happier in general. One of my old friends has no hobbies, unless afternoon drinking counts as a hobby. A few years back I suggested she find a hobby, she looked at me like I was crazy and said "I work all day, why would I want to spend my free time working too", some people just don't get it.

This thread has given me several chuckles in just the past few minutes. Keep it going!

dalmatiangirl61 said:

As for hobbies in general, I find that people with creative hobbies seem to be happier in general. One of my old friends has no hobbies, unless afternoon drinking counts as a hobby. A few years back I suggested she find a hobby, she looked at me like I was crazy and said "I work all day, why would I want to spend my free time working too", some people just don't get it.

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I retired a couple of months ago. When discussing my decision with a couple of friends close to my own age, they commented that they were in a financial position to retire but don't know what they would do if they did. I asked them a simple question; What thing is work keeping you from doing that you would/could do if you had the time? They both had the same answer; "Nothing". One of them rather enjoyed his job so i think he's in an OK place. The other hated his job. I feel very sorry for him.

Yes, i agree creative hobbies or perhaps any hobby that engages your mind is very fulfilling. For me, that's the appeal of these old machines. They can be brought back to almost as good as new functionality and doing so is within the reach of mere mortals. Does it make sense financially? - No. Does it represent endless opportunity to study the evolution and practice of our industrial heritage and marvel at the brilliance of those that came before us? - Yes IMHO.

After spending a lifetime working in machine shops of all kinds. To me an old machine tool is nothing more than... an old machine tool. I never got the attraction that the hobbyist have for them. But to each his own. Nobody gives a hoot about my hobbies either. Fair play.

davehud said:

After spending a lifetime working in machine shops of all kinds. To me an old machine tool is nothing more than... an old machine tool. I never got the attraction that the hobbyist have for them. But to each his own. Nobody gives a hoot about my hobbies either. Fair play.

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The "hobbyist" wants to make stuff. Never mind what the hobbyist wants to make, might be little motors, or it might be stuff for a part time business, parts for custom or vintage cars, whatever.

To do that, one can buy a "chicom kit machine", that needs a good bit of attention/work, and probably is not made to a good design.

Or, alternately, one can buy, for a LOT less money, an industrial machine that also needs some work.

Probably both are "usable" as-is, but can be improved. Obviously, buying a real POS with major parts missing or seriously damaged is not included here......

I totally understand the thoughts of person who wants a machine to allow making things, but who is not going to get the monetary payback from buying a good new machine. That person wants to have a machine that works well, and is made well, but cannot afford the cost (or does not want to) of a new good quality machine.

Buying an older industrial machine and fixing it is a sensible approach, so long as you are capable of doing/learning the things needed.

I bought the dirty Rivett (for cheap) from a guy who built dragsters. He just used it for making bushings etc. When something got in the way, or didn't work, he just took it off and tossed it into the cabinet in the base...... Not a guy who was interested in fixing it, let alone whether he was capable of doing that. At least he oiled it.

I bought it because I just plain lusted after the thing and knew I was capable of bringing it back to better than "usable" shape. They are cool old machines, and very well made. I have a couple other lathes etc, so I have time to do this one right, and no need to have it working super soon. I expect to use it, but if I decided to sell it after finishing it, I would make quite a bit of cash on the deal. There are others who like them also, and have more money than I do for "expensive toys". I'd not buy a restored one, I have machines already for use.