Monarch 16CY bed wear assessment results (should I invest or cut my losses?)
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  1. #1
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    Default Monarch 16CY bed wear assessment results (should I invest or cut my losses?)

    Hi all,
    A couple of weeks ago i brought home a 1941 Monarch 16CY with 54" bed. At the time of purchase I opened up the headstock and confirmed the gears look good. This thing came with a taper attachment, steady rest and follow rest. I'm assessing the condition of the machine and am trying to determine if i should continue to invest time and money in this machine or, if it's too worn, should I part it out to recoup my money ($2K into it so far). I'm a hobbyist with aspirations to earn a bit of beer money after retirement from my full time job.

    I just finished taking some measurements of the internal and external surfaces on the v-ways. My set up for taking these measurements is shown in the attached photos. I did not level the machine prior to taking these measurements as i would think that dimensions across the bed are not effected by bed twist. Also, i realize that the measured wear is the result of wear in both the v-way and the flat way upon which the jig is sitting. Note that i'm using the back vertical flat surface as a reference. This set up shown in the pics is only for the inside surface of the V-way, i did the outside surface as well. The v-ways show some pretty significant pitting which many on the antique forum believe to be due to corrosion. Results are below, all measurements are in thousandths.

    Thanks
    Mark



    Distance from Headstock, Outside, Inside,
    3", 0, 0,
    1 ft, -3, -1.5,
    2 ft, -5, +1,
    3 ft, -5, +5,
    4 ft, -1, +8,
    5 ft, +2, +7.5,
    6 ft, +4, +5,
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_20190804_123635132.jpg   img_20190804_123641840.jpg  

  2. #2
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    Darn,

    I wish I had a lathe with that little of wear in the bed. I know all of the experts are going to say that's not the proper way to check for wear, and it's not. My suggestion is, get the lathe running, cleaned up, replace the way wipers and such. Then do some test cutting. I feel the most you will have to do is maybe shim up the tail stock a few thousandths. I think you're going to find out that it will do just fine and do decent quality work for anyone needing machine work done. I've run lathes with way much worse wear than that and held .001-.002" all day long day in day out in my earlier days. Nice lathe you have there. Ken

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    I'd have to say the bed wear is negligible for a 78 year old. The August '46 CW16 X 102 here is likely worse as to variation simply because it is longer - with the tail stock end essentially unused.

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    People get so caught up over bed wear, when it is the saddle that wears far more.

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    I agree with 4 G that is not the proper method to check the bed. The indicator resting in the 1 2 3 block on the tail-stock flat could give you false readings if it is worn. Use the Tail-stock base and a mag base on it and start at the TS end of bed and move it up the bed. Then move the saddle down the bed then carefully pick up the base with mag base on it and lift it over the saddle and check the ways near the head. The ways near the head and ts end will be the same. That will give you the best readings.

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    Thank you all for the feedback. I am certainly in the shallow end of the pool when it comes to taking these measurements. I watched a Keith Rucker video on you tube and was basically trying to replicate his measurements. I understand that wear in the the TS flat way will corrupt the V-way measurement as Richard pointed out. I also wasn't all that fussy about ensuring the indicator was measuring perpendicular to the V-way face which would be another source of error.

    I'm a bit fixated on determining if the condition of the bed is such that it's worth spending time and effort on the rest of the machine. I was considering taking Richard's scraping class in Vermont this past May and may sign up for one in the future if one is offered within easy driving distance of upstate NY. If i do take one of these classes, i can imagine reconditioning the carriage, cross slide, compound and maybe tailstock using turcite and subsequent scraping. If i eventually go through all that trouble, i'd like to do it on a machine with a decent bed.

    The advice to get the thing cleaned up and running and assess over-all performance makes a lot of sense. The lube points in the carriage/apron are all clogged up so i'll need to remove the apron to clean everything. If the feedback from you guys was "this thing is trash" i probably wouldn't bother going any further in the clean-up.

    At some point i will need to determine how much time, effort and money i should put into this thing. From the money standpoint, new belts and a decent four jaw chuck are in order. From a time and effort standpoint, i already discussed the turcite and scraping.

    Thank you again and any additional comments or advise are welcome.

    Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by RC99 View Post
    People get so caught up over bed wear, when it is the saddle that wears far more.
    True, but on any of the large bearing-area, long carriage Grand Old legends, you'd need a good hundred pounds of sand or shot bags on alternate corners to much make it show its worst, more-yet off the tool-tip. Hobbyists just don't GO there without they wet themselves over the drama of a medium/heavy lathe at full gallop.

    Somewhere between ten thousand and a hundred thousand hungry for a crust worker-bee Machinists have made acceptable parts on far, far worse "company lathes" when we still ran such critters all over North America, UK, Continental Europe and downunder. Had no choice in the matter.

    Just go put it to work and adapt to its "ways". Way oilers are clogged? Leave the carriage & apron TF alone and go buy you a decent ten-dollah pump-oiler, then USE it. Often.

    Or there'll never BE any "beer money" nor even free time to wish for it, after the time and money costs of f**king with it.

    So whom is it as DOES make that costly side-trip? Why.. those among us as as can make SERIOUS money off a better machine not otherwise available... or those among us do not HAVE to. Where the rebuild itself IS our project, not the use of it, bills paid regardless, beer already in the 'fridge. Champagne, even. Just in case..




    Take yer pick. The "middle ground" - time and money out, none coming back - is what hurts mo$te$t.

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    Marka, How big is your shop? How about hosting a class? Once you figure out how bad your bed is you could either get it ground or leave it alone and have a class at your shop and we could put the Rulon on the ways as we did on Keiths Leblonde or Lance B's EE that we did at the class Keith hosted. (he has hosted 4 or 5 and Lance was been my assistant. As RC said...many times the bed is good enough as was Keiths Leblonde.

    PS: The device I helped Keith make and use was bolted together and no chance on anything moving to get false reading. We would have used his TS base but it was screwed up and needed to be fit before we could use it. That is the key. You can't get a consistent reading with movable parts. Making it so easy to get false readings. His bed was out...I think .005" and he decided that was good enough for the work he would do on the lathe. So many rookies automatically think the bed needs to be perfect and forget about how many good professional machinists use worn machines day in and day out and can make good parts.

    How many times will you be turning a shaft 36" long? Or will you be turning free from the chuck, not more the 2" long? One needs to take that into consideration. You will spend probably 10,000.00 to $20,000.00 to rebuild that machine. If your $rich$ and want a restored to new machine accuracy go for it. Or spend $6000.00 and buy a good used machine or a new one made in Taiwan.
    Last edited by Richard King; 08-05-2019 at 09:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    True, but on any of the large bearing-area, long carriage Grand Old legends, you'd need a good hundred pounds of sand or shot bags on alternate corners to much make it show its worst, more-yet off the tool-tip. Hobbyists just don't GO there without they wet themselves over the drama of a medium/heavy lathe at full gallop.

    Somewhere between ten thousand and a hundred thousand hungry for a crust worker-bee Machinists have made acceptable parts on far, far worse "company lathes" when we still ran such critters all over North America, UK, Continental Europe and downunder. Had no choice in the matter.

    Just go put it to work and adapt to its "ways". Way oilers are clogged? Leave the carriage & apron TF alone and go buy you a decent ten-dollah pump-oiler, then USE it. Often.

    Or there'll never BE any "beer money" nor even free time to wish for it, after the time and money costs of f**king with it.

    So whom is it as DOES make that costly side-trip? Why.. those among us as as can make SERIOUS money off a better machine not otherwise available... or those among us do not HAVE to. Where the rebuild itself IS our project, not the use of it, bills paid regardless, beer already in the 'fridge. Champagne, even. Just in case..




    Take yer pick. The "middle ground" - time and money out, none coming back - is what hurts mo$te$t.
    Thank you sir for the perspective. You always give me something to think about which is the point of this board. In this case, i'm fortunate in that i don't drink much beer (other than the one i'm having as I type this). I'm one of those guys who believes the best way to ruin a good hobby is to put yourself in a position where you need to make money from it. At that point it turns into work. I'm one of those guys that simply enjoys the process of studying something practical and putting it into practice. The notion of taking on the occasional outside job is as much about finding interesting projects as the payback. You correctly pointed out that in some cases, the machine becomes the project. For me that may be where this ends up.

    Thanks again for the feedback, keep it coming.
    M

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    Marka, How big is your shop? How about hosting a class? Once you figure out how bad your bed is you could either get it ground or leave it alone and have a class at your shop and we could put the Rulon on the ways as we did on Keiths Leblonde or Lance B's EE that we did at the class Keith hosted. (he has hosted 4 or 5 and Lance was been my assistant. As RC said...many times the bed is good enough as was Keiths Leblonde.

    PS: The device I helped Keith make and use was bolted together and no chance on anything moving to get false reading. We would have used his TS base but it was screwed up and needed to be fit before we could use it. That is the key. You can't get a consistent reading with movable parts. Making it so easy to get false readings. His bed was out...I think .005" and he decided that was good enough for the work he would do on the lathe. So many rookies automatically think the bed needs to be perfect and forget about how many good professional machinists use worn machines day in and day out and can make good parts.

    How many times will you be turning a shaft 36" long? Or will you be turning free from the chuck, not more the 2" long? One needs to take that into consideration. You will spend probably 10,000.00 to $20,000.00 to rebuild that machine. If your $rich$ and want a restored to new machine accuracy go for it. Or spend $6000.00 and buy a good used machine or a new one made in Taiwan.
    Richard, I'll email you regarding the notion of hosting a class. $10-20K ain't happening. For me the appeal of these old beasts is the capability a guy like me can buy for not a lot of money. I've learned that if you can move bigger machines, you can pick them up cheap and if they're worn beyond use you can get back most of your spend in scrap. The group answered my question, the machine is worth my time and money to get into service, warts and all.

    Thanks for the feedback
    M

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    Quote Originally Posted by marka12161 View Post
    You correctly pointed out that in some cases, the machine becomes the project. For me that may be where this ends up.
    I'm FAR the worse example of that. With No NEED to make chips?

    My "project" began -and remains - primarily that to do with the best ways to simply POWER the Old Iron!

    - 10 kW nominal,(@ 8,000 ft AMSL) 12 KW sustainable (@ 356 ft AMSL), 15 KW peak-capable MEP-803A NATO/OTAN gen set, 3-phase capable and at up to 230 VAC Wye, not just 208.

    - 2 X 10 HP Phase-Perfect

    - Messing about with a 10 HP RPC to add another Idler as supplement for starting & c...

    - Cummins-Onan 3-Phase 10 KW Automatic transfer Switch. Square-D 60 A manual transfer switches.

    - 27 KW "drive isolation" Delta-Wye transformer.. More planned...

    - Several Variacs medium to very large.. Uber-stout multi-tap transformer, thanks to 9100 Bill.

    Whole tribe of 180 VDC Reliance RPM III Dee Cee motors, Parker SSD or KB-Penta drives to match.

    Coupla Oscilloscopes, dozen or so meters.... yada yada...

    And everyting I need to hand-scrape, not power-scrape. SE's from about two feet to four feet, (former) grade A Herman granite plate as well.

    So much s**t, in fact, there ain't half the space I really need to USE it.

    More to it than money.

    This stuff can bury you on space and time just as fast, and that part is actually harder to get clear of.

    "DAMHIKT", but yer on the right track, Git that lathe to "useful" first. "Improved" can come as you actually NEED that.

    Chasing-up an also "useful", if imperfect, MILL would be a good move if you do not already have such. Reality is that even when I AM to make chips, it is a GOOD mill I need far more than a lathe - which just isn't as critical as to "goodness".

    Far faster and easier to "compensate" on a tired or under-weight lathe than on a tired or underweight mill.

    3CW

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    Cut a couple test bars. If they come up to your standards. Let the machine live another 50 years.
    What are your standards? .005in 12”
    .0005 in 12”

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    Marka has volunteered to host a class next spring in Upper NY state. Thank You. He has a sweet looking shop and doesn't need much advice on machining and IMPO he is not a hobbyist with the types of equipment and shop he has. Reminds me of a small Keith Rucker's shop. Thanks ....it will be my pleasure to teach you how to scrape.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmikkalson View Post
    Cut a couple test bars. If they come up to your standards. Let the machine live another 50 years.
    What are your standards? .005in 12”
    .0005 in 12”
    I'll take your advise as well as the advise of others. I'll get the machine cleaned up, properly lubricated, moved into place, leveled up then see how it performs. Hopefully by the time we hold the scraping class sometime in the spring i'll have more information and can determine what if anything i need/want to attend to on this thing. With respect to my standards, i really don't have any (you could take that many ways). Like everyone else, i want the best machine i can get for the money & space allocated to it. Since i am a hobbyist i have no defined requirements. The day someone walks into the shop and asks me to do something i'm uncomfortable with to a one-of-a-kind, irreplaceable part will be the day it all gets very interesting. On the other hand, i could see myself helping out the local farmers with pins and bushings. The fun is in finding out.

    Thanks for the input

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    @marka12161 approximately where are you? I have family in the rochester area and not having to pay for lodging might make a class affordable enough for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jkopel View Post
    @marka12161 approximately where are you? I have family in the rochester area and not having to pay for lodging might make a class affordable enough for me.
    We're in Oswego. A little over an hour east of Rochester. Hope you can make it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marka12161 View Post
    I'll take your advise as well as the advise of others. I'll get the machine cleaned up, properly lubricated, moved into place, leveled up then see how it performs. Hopefully by the time we hold the scraping class sometime in the spring i'll have more information and can determine what if anything i need/want to attend to on this thing. With respect to my standards, i really don't have any (you could take that many ways). Like everyone else, i want the best machine i can get for the money & space allocated to it. Since i am a hobbyist i have no defined requirements. The day someone walks into the shop and asks me to do something i'm uncomfortable with to a one-of-a-kind, irreplaceable part will be the day it all gets very interesting. On the other hand, i could see myself helping out the local farmers with pins and bushings. The fun is in finding out.

    Thanks for the input

    Glad it’s living on,
    In regards to “leveling” the lathe don’t get all crazy with”level” lathes are installed on ships and ships are not level 🤔

    What you need to do is take any twist out of the bed, or even put a little twist in to correct some wear.

    Do some test bars, I’m curious as to what it cuts. I bet we will be surprised in a good way.
    Make very light cuts, with a sharp HSS bit.


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