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Plain Bearing Journal Repair, Concentricity Requirements

All,

Apologies for the cross-post. My questions on plain bearing spindle journal repair aren't getting much traction in the South Bend Lathe forum. Hoping to generate a more technical discussion here. Thanks!

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...e-plain-bearing-journal-concentricity-355302/

Not sure what you expected and had not already been handed, right in that thread?

You are agonizing over a tolerance no South Bend can effectively put to use.

If the spindle were to be absolutely perfect, too much else moves at orders of magnitude greater excursions anyway.

What you seek is closer to uber-fine surface grinder plain-bearing spindles. Herr Pelz casually demostrating near-zero TIR on his newly-crafted Bronze bearing for an ancient B&S #2, summer of 1959 or 1960?

The dial indicator with the near-as-dammit "frozen" sub-one-fifth of a division needle was 50 millionths per division. Pope probably did better-yet as a a matter of ordinary day-to-day routine on their legendary SG spindles.

I NOW have 20-Millionths (Mahr, electronic) and 10-Millionths (Hamilton, mechanical) per-division indicators. But I don't allow them to make me stupid-optimistic in an indifferent world.

ISTR Monarch's 10EE shipped with but a 50 millionths TIR spec. If one wanted 35 millionths? That was an extra charge. It took right about one full TON more Iron than an SB owns to build the rest of a lathe that had any chance of making USE of a spindle even that good. Even then, very few who bought them actually needed to do.

Your spindle cometh back from that "better" grind shop?

It's going into a South Bend? Don't make a problem out of a solution.

Just use it.
 
You are agonizing over a tolerance no South Bend can effectively put to use.

It's going into a South Bend?

Just use it.

Nobody's agonizing. As already stated, the necessary correction in grinding shops has been made. Answers like "just run it at an angle because it's a South Bend" (I'm paraphrasing here) aren't answers to the questions that were asked.

It's a machine rebuilding/engineering question: How much deviation is too much deviation for a plain bearing oil film to function as intended?
 
Nobody's agonizing. As already stated, the necessary correction in grinding shops has been made. Answers like "just run it at an angle because it's a South Bend" (I'm paraphrasing here) aren't answers to the questions that were asked.

It's a machine rebuilding/engineering question: How much deviation is too much deviation for a plain bearing oil film to function as intended?

A rebuilder just has to work with such specs as he can hire from a specialist - your TWO grind shops - or do for himself. Can't shit what was never on the menu to eat.

Might "Timesaver" work for you? Or do you need a different abrasive for your Chromed goods? Above my current Pay Grade, but someone here will know.

Otherwise, the THEORY was in a formal course, ME-something-or-other, 1960's. Go and sit the course if the academics of it matters to you more than what the SB can deliver.

I'm sure it has been updated to cover the advances in lubricants and the wider variety of bearing materials - easily a hundred and more times more choices than were available, dawn of the 1960's. Lead-Indium, to name one, was already over 20 years and more in widespread use, but not covered at all in the theory at the time. Bronze or Babbitt against hardened steel were good enough "for training purposes". There would have been advanced courses and post-graduate courses.

I wasn't even in an ME program. EE, rather. This was just a useful subject, all-around, a no-effort "A". One of TWO "A" that semester, so maybe not so "no-effort" if one was not already a reasonably well-experienced machinist & mechanic. Credits were credits. Actual "learning" had little to do with Universities, then, and even less-so, NOW. They are merely in the money-lender business.

Nothing wrong with "knowing".

The hard part is the sweat required to get a hobby lathe to actually give a damn about what you know! They may have "ears" on various bits of kit for mounting stuff, but they still don't LISTEN very well!

:D
 
Nothing wrong with "knowing".

The hard part is the sweat required to get a hobby lathe to actually give a damn about what you know! They may have "ears" on various bits of kit for mounting stuff, but they still don't LISTEN very well!

:D

Touché, touché.

My mechanical engineering degrees came later. I had some great teachers (and by that I mean both the tenured professors in the classroom and the machine shop supervisor in the basement of the building who taught me the practical side of what I was hearing upstairs).

Sadly, I never heard the term "tribology" until I started rebuilding a 75-year-old South Bend 16. She has taught me much, and is still very much my master. I learn something new every day I work with the old girl.
 
Sadly, I never heard the term "tribology" until

LOL! Yazz, why-did-they, and what's in a name?

First time I encountered the term, eye-brain had done a dyslexian on the spelling, and my reaction was:

WTF do dawn-era arthropods have to do with machinery lubrication? They weren't petro-formers? Or WERE they?


At least.. I hadn't jumped into societal study of the Philippines.

Talk about "tribal"! Yah don't REALLY wanna know!

:)
 

Just a couple minor corrections to the inputs:

The spindle has two journals of different sizes. The smaller of the two is 2" (grinding spec is 1.9985"-1.9990"). The larger of the journals is 2-7/8" (grinding spec is 2.8735-2.8740").

The captured length of the smaller journal is 3.5".

The captured length of the larger journal is ~5".

The separation distance between the captured portion of the journals is 12-5/8".

The bearing oil film thickness on the low end of the spec is 0.00035" all the way around the journal (total of 0.0007" on the diameter).
 
The bearing oil film thickness on the low end of the spec is 0.00035" all the way around the journal (total of 0.0007" on the diameter).

But once you put a load on it the oil film is squished on one side and increased on the other.

The tilted bearing journal (or shaft) is going to increase the rpm at which the oil film supports the shaft completely, due to the high concentration of force put at the edges of the cylinder, but it probably won't matter unless you want to run the lathe with thousands of pounds of force on the spindle at rather low speeds.


You should be able to observe this by chucking up a rather long >2" bar of steel in the lathe, put a hand crank on the end. you should feel the friction required to turn the lathe spindle periodically vary twice, or once per revolution, if the bearings were perfect you wouldn't feel that.

The oil film has fully supported the spindle when the friction significantly drops and the periodicity of that friction drops to nearly zero.

for this test a longer rod is better because you want a lot of weight on the spindle bearing but not a lot of inertia.
 
But once you put a load on it the oil film is squished on one side and increased on the other.

The tilted bearing journal (or shaft) is going to increase the rpm at which the oil film supports the shaft completely, due to the high concentration of force put at the edges of the cylinder, but it probably won't matter unless you want to run the lathe with thousands of pounds of force on the spindle at rather low speeds.
So there's a circulating or pumping effect, too, yah?

This could increase oil consumption/loss, SB type of bearing, could it not?
 
Tom email me so WE dont have to read all the crap.

How about you just email yourself and NO ONE will have to "read all the crap"?

From the masthead and "bread crumb" bar, website:

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/machine-reconditioning-scraping-and-inspection/

Forum Open Discussion Machine Reconditioning, Scraping and Inspection

Forum: Machine Reconditioning, Scraping and Inspection

Discuss reconditioning of machine tool components to improve geometry. Also machine prep and painting.

Emphasis mine, as you have waged war rather unfairly on those options and their various contributors as well for far too long.

If PM is to be your personal advertising vehicle, and nothing else?

BUY AD SPACE and run your advertising, free and clear of any other opinions or discussion.

Here's the link for yah:

Advertise with us - Practical Machinist : Practical Machinist

That simple.
 
Bill

It's all about authority and control/

Accept it.

"HE are the Borg?" How's he going to find the time to run the world???

Ever stop to calculate how many man-hours it took to train 20,000 scrapers (the numbers posted on PM seem to get higher each mention?) in 30 out of 45 years. Two every day of every week, 30 years, straight? That's a "lost art"? Just when and how did it ever find the time to get "lost"?

I guess a person WOULD get a tad tetchy from overwork and lose sight of any other world-view being permitted to the less intensely involved.

And then he finds time to send begging PM's out on mass-broadcast to try to shut-down anything HE sees as questioning that "authority and control"?

Too much like work for me, all that posturing. I'd rather just take a beating ever' day or three. Never long been any shortage of volunteers to deliver such.

But it's only an internet forum. "Virtual" cuts and bruises. No blood.

And we even LEARN from those exchanges, yah?

Basic human nature to learn faster and remember better and longer from hard knocks than from mutual an.. atomy stroking.

Why worry?
Bold knaves thrive without one grain of sense,
But good men starve for want of impudence.
(John Dryden, "Constantine the Great")
 
Last edited:
Update on the status of this spindle swap project.

The [new] grinding house is finished with the rework. The bad news is the new journal is 0.0012" below the low end factory diameter spec of 2.8735".

The good news is every surface on the part is now running within 0.0001" of true concentric.

My intuition (always subject to correction from people who actually know...) is that 1.2 thou undersize running in a split bronze bearing with expanders is not going to cause me grief. If the spindle nose points down a bit because of the smaller size, I can compensate by scraping under the headstock, but 0.0006" low over a two foot spindle length will be in the noise considering long term carriage drop/bed wear.

Thanks again for the all input.

Tom
 
You might be happy with all bearing air when you go to balance in the lathe, you know, spirit level, twist and twerk.
 
Update on the status of this spindle swap project.

The [new] grinding house is finished with the rework. The bad news is the new journal is 0.0012" below the low end factory diameter spec of 2.8735".

The good news is every surface on the part is now running within 0.0001" of true concentric.

My intuition (always subject to correction from people who actually know...) is that 1.2 thou undersize running in a split bronze bearing with expanders is not going to cause me grief. If the spindle nose points down a bit because of the smaller size, I can compensate by scraping under the headstock, but 0.0006" low over a two foot spindle length will be in the noise considering long term carriage drop/bed wear.

Thanks again for the all input.

Tom

Could you electroplate or micro-Babbitt the bearing?
 
Could you electroplate or micro-Babbitt the bearing?

Yes to electroplating—that’s how the new hard chrome surface was added.

I’m not familiar with micro-Babbitting.

I don’t believe bearing support will be an issue given the nature of the SBL expander design that compensated for wear.

Any spindle axis misalignment can be easily corrected by scraping the bottom of the headstock.
 
Yes to electroplating—that’s how the new hard chrome surface was added.

I’m not familiar with micro-Babbitting.

I don’t believe bearing support will be an issue given the nature of the SBL expander design that compensated for wear.

Any spindle axis misalignment can be easily corrected by scraping the bottom of the headstock.

Corrects yes, "easily" a matter of degree vs a trip to a plater for the bearing.

"Micro-Babbitt" starts out about six-thou thick or better. It's the layer the eye sees on many an inserted bearing shell, pressure-lubed IC engine world. There is a layer Bronze back of some of it. Plain steel shell other times.

Bronze can be plated AS an alloy. K.C. Jones have made a business of that. See "Microlloy Bronze". 90 % Cu, 10% Sn. Or thereabouts.

Indium would be tempting.

I mean... if one has already gone a tad "anal" over a South Bend? Why be a tight-srse about it? Go all the way for the grins!

:D
 








 
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