Box level restore

dcsipo · Sep 2, 2020

I just bought a 6" box level....well sorta level, the vial is not adjustable, and I measured, it is not quite level. The only option is to scrape it. The base, where the level is, has a V. one adjacent side is flat the rest have Vs. Here is my thinking... Start with getting the base level ignoring the inside of the V. Scrape the opposite side V and flats parallel with the base, flip over scrape the base V parallel with the opposite side. Scrape the flat side square then scrape the opposite V parallel. Do I need to share what I am smoking?

I'll post some pictures later

dee
;-D

TrueBor · Sep 2, 2020

I am just suggesting that if it's not too much not level you could rub it on a piece of 100 grit sandpaper on some thick piece of glass. And you can push harder on the end/side you want to remove more material. I think you will get much better result like this than by "Scraping" which is very time consuming, difficult and needs special tools and gauges etc. Anyway, this is just my 2c - what I would do. If you are good with the file you can also file it nice and straight and have it as good as new. Files are wonderful tools and with some practice one can get super nice results.

dcsipo · Sep 2, 2020

TrueBor said:
I am just suggesting that if it's not too much not level you could rub it on a piece of 100 grit sandpaper on some thick piece of glass. And you can push harder on the end/side you want to remove more material. I think you will get much better result like this than by "Scraping" which is very time consuming, difficult and needs special tools and gauges etc. Anyway, this is just my 2c - what I would do. If you are good with the file you can also file it nice and straight and have it as good as new. Files are wonderful tools and with some practice one can get super nice results.

Hey, I am looking for an excuse to scrape it

Not my first rodeo. I have the tools to make this happen, I am just verifying the sequence.

dee
;-D

lucky7 · Sep 2, 2020

Dee, I’d step scrape the level side into, ahem, level, then use a surface grinder to do the rest using the newly scraped surface as datum. Finally, I’d fine tune the ground surfaces with a scraper if needed. If no grinder to hand, your sequence will work.

As for using a file? Really? I was trained by a bunch of grumpy ex British fitters and tool and die makers and am very comfortable with my filing abilities. This is not the job for a file. If a guy thinks scraping to precise limits is difficult and time consuming, maybe he needs to learn how to scrape. Is not rocket science.

L7

TGTool · Sep 2, 2020

Sounds like the right sequence, though there could be others that would work equally well. For instance, if you used the stock-squaring practice of 1. one side, 2. adjacent side square, 3, fourth side parallel with adjacent, 4. third side parallel with first it would come out to the same thing. No premium I can see either way.

Too bad there's no adjustment for the vial. It raises some interesting question about use in practice. If you were exploring machine geometry in place, there's no reason it has to be absolutely level. Just check how the reading shifts. If the level is adjustable you could zero set at the starting place and progress from there. Alternatively you could shim or place the level on a boat or carriage that's itself adjustable so you don't have to adjust the level. With your non-adjustable level you could do this wherever the bubble starts out.

But then, if it's all an excuse to do some scraping and testing practice none of the argument matters.

TrueBor · Sep 2, 2020

dcsipo said:
Hey, I am looking for an excuse to scrape it Not my first rodeo. I have the tools to make this happen, I am just verifying the sequence.

dee
;-D

That is NICE and I wish you great success ! Please share the pictures !

TGTool · Sep 2, 2020

lucky7 said:
As for using a file? Really? I was trained by a bunch of grumpy ex British fitters and tool and die makers and am very comfortable with my filing abilities. This is not the job for a file. If a guy thinks scraping to precise limits is difficult and time consuming, maybe he needs to learn how to scrape. Is not rocket science.

L7

Or if you think filing is just as good as scraping, it's too bad you couldn't have been back in history to tell Whitworth he could save himself a lot of trouble.

TrueBor · Sep 2, 2020

lucky7 said:
As for using a file? Really? I was trained by a bunch of grumpy ex British fitters and tool and die makers and am very comfortable with my filing abilities. This is not the job for a file. If a guy thinks scraping to precise limits is difficult and time consuming, maybe he needs to learn how to scrape. Is not rocket science.

L7

I just suggested based on my personal experience - no intention to upset anybody. File is very quick and result is good enough. But of course, for people who know then "scraping" can work as well.

TrueBor · Sep 2, 2020

TGTool said:
Or if you think filing is just as good as scraping, it's too bad you couldn't have been back in history to tell Whitworth he could save himself a lot of trouble.

I don't know what trouble Mr. Whitworth had but yes, I think a file is better when... a file is better. I always think it is best to go for the simplest and fastest tool/way and get the job done well enough for the purpose. As I said, just my opinion. I mean "scraping" can also look very nice and nothing wrong with doing that, too. Only ( in my opinion !) it is very very slow and not accurate - for this particular situation !

lucky7 · Sep 2, 2020

TGTool, not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with what I said. My point was scraping gets you to a much finer tolerance of flat parallel and square than filing. And that the OP’s square is simply not a ‘good enough’ job for a file.

Starting to wonder if TrueBor is pulling peoples legs?

L7

dcsipo · Sep 2, 2020

lucky7 said:
Dee, I’d step scrape the level side into, ahem, level, then use a surface grinder to do the rest using the newly scraped surface as datum. Finally, I’d fine tune the ground surfaces with a scraper if needed. If no grinder to hand, your sequence will work.

As for using a file? Really? I was trained by a bunch of grumpy ex British fitters and tool and die makers and am very comfortable with my filing abilities. This is not the job for a file. If a guy thinks scraping to precise limits is difficult and time consuming, maybe he needs to learn how to scrape. Is not rocket science.

L7

Uhm, file? nay mate. you know how it works... But look at the pictures. It is an interesting problem. It looks like it is out about 5 or 6 tents over 6" not much but enough to throw It off. The surface grinder is still a big project waiting for some inspiration and an RPC.

TGTool said:
Sounds like the right sequence, though there could be others that would work equally well. For instance, if you used the stock-squaring practice of 1. one side, 2. adjacent side square, 3, fourth side parallel with adjacent, 4. third side parallel with first it would come out to the same thing. No premium I can see either way.

Too bad there's no adjustment for the vial. It raises some interesting question about use in practice. If you were exploring machine geometry in place, there's no reason it has to be absolutely level. Just check how the reading shifts. If the level is adjustable you could zero set at the starting place and progress from there. Alternatively you could shim or place the level on a boat or carriage that's itself adjustable so you don't have to adjust the level. With your non-adjustable level you could do this wherever the bubble starts out.

But then, if it's all an excuse to do some scraping and testing practice none of the argument matters.

Yeah, I was kinda disappointed finding no adjustment. But once I get it level, square, parallel, and all it will serve its intended purpose. I have enough adjustable levels to deal with things, I wanted a box level.

dee
;-D

TGTool · Sep 2, 2020

lucky7 said:
TGTool, not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with what I said. My point was scraping gets you to a much finer tolerance of flat parallel and square than filing. And that the OP’s square is simply not a ‘good enough’ job for a file.

Starting to wonder if TrueBor is pulling peoples legs?

L7

Lucky, I'm agreeing with you. It was a sly suggestion that the poster's suggesting that filing would be fine really did not understand the difference between accuracy to thousandths and accuracy to tenths of thousandths or less. He does qualify with the "in my opinion" or "in my experience" but I believe his experience doesn't include an understanding of the early development of extreme accuracy which I still think was just remarkable for its time. Prior to the scraping skill development there was only filing and lapping that put a natural limit on the development of better machine tools.

Keep up the good work.

dcsipo · Sep 3, 2020

TGTool said:
Lucky, I'm agreeing with you. It was a sly suggestion that the poster's suggesting that filing would be fine really did not understand the difference between accuracy to thousandths and accuracy to tenths of thousandths or less. He does qualify with the "in my opinion" or "in my experience" but I believe his experience doesn't include an understanding of the early development of extreme accuracy which I still think was just remarkable for its time. Prior to the scraping skill development there was only filing and lapping that put a natural limit on the development of better machine tools.

Keep up the good work.

An interesting discussion can be had from this. if you stack up filing, scraping, and lapping you get to various levels of surface precision. Filing is akin to milling or turning, and it is designed for "rapid" surface removal rapid in a sense of a manual process. Scraping is a surface refinement process. The development of the surface in "spots" gives the scraper hand the ability to control the surface removal bit by bit. With files, you take wide swat, with lapping you need a flat surface to start with and you are removing the "entire surface". In both of those methods, it is hard to use spotting to check for alignment or flatness. When Withworth was developing his methods scraping provided the ideal precision achievable with very primitive tools. A sharp edge, some blue ink, and three surfaces, all you need to make all surfaces flat within a tenth per foot.

dee
;-D

thermite · Sep 3, 2020

lucky7 said:
TGTool, not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with what I said. My point was scraping gets you to a much finer tolerance of flat parallel and square than filing. And that the OP’s square is simply not a ‘good enough’ job for a file.

Starting to wonder if TrueBor is pulling peoples legs?

L7

So where's the beef? Same thing.

A scraper is just a file with only one tooth?

Or a file is just a scraper with more than one tooth?

Semantics....

The rest is up to the craftsman..

TrueBor · Sep 3, 2020

thermite said:
So where's the beef? Same thing.

A scraper is just a file with only one tooth?

Or a file is just a scraper with more than one tooth?

Semantics....

The rest is up to the craftsman..

Yes, SIR !
Can I say that I enjoy your posts very much. I think you were some sort of GOOD manager and I like your take on most things. Please stay safe in these difficult times !

TrueBor · Sep 3, 2020

lucky7 said:
1. My point was scraping gets you to a much finer tolerance of flat parallel and square than filing.

2. And that the OP’s square is simply not a ‘good enough’ job for a file.

3. Starting to wonder if TrueBor is pulling peoples legs?

L7

I will try help you :

1. You are wrong.
2. It is a job for a grinder and then for "scraping" to look nice. W/out grinder file will do.
3. Not pulling legs - trying to get you THINKING.

Peter from Holland · Sep 3, 2020

Scraping is absolutly not only for looking nice
Grinding is for quick removal
Then you scrape it flat square or whatever
A grinder that can perform as good as a scraping craftsman is a high dollar machine kept in excellent condition with a experienced craftsman behind it on his lucky day

Peter

dcsipo · Sep 3, 2020

thermite said:
So where's the beef? Same thing.

A scraper is just a file with only one tooth?

Or a file is just a scraper with more than one tooth?

Semantics....

The rest is up to the craftsman..

Sure a file is a scrapper just like a saw is a chisel, or a plane is a card scrape except for a few other things. Multitooth tools like saws and files have a predetermined angle of attack and to be efficient you have to have multiple teeth engaged, right? So by that nature, you remove material in the area determined by the stroke length the number of teeth engaged, and the width of the teeth, pretty much predetermined. With a scraper, you vary the area removed by the attack angle, the stroke length, and stroke shape, and also impacted by the radius of the blade. I.E you have much better control of material removal. So yeah the scraper is a file just like a card scraper is a sanding block.

In the end, I cannot do things with a scraper I can do with a file and I cannot do things with the file I can do with a scraper.

dee
;-D

dcsipo · Sep 3, 2020

TrueBor said:
I will try help you :

1. You are wrong.Nope, Matt knows exactly what he is talking about, he made more CI chips than most mortals around here
2. It is a job for a grinder and then for "scraping" to look nice. W/out grinder file will do.Nah, you can do anything with scraping you can do on a grinder and then some. Sure I would first grind it if my SG was working, but it does not and therefore I scrape. The out of measurement is too small to attack it with a file. If this was out 4-10 thou I would possibly sand or file it.
3. Not pulling legs - trying to get you THINKING.I already thought about it . Scraping is the right thing

not typing anything in this area

thermite · Sep 3, 2020

dcsipo said:
In the end, I cannot do things with a scraper I can do with a file and I cannot do things with the file I can do with a scraper.

dee
;-D

Can. Can not.

Do. Do not.

Ok. We have that covered now?

If you would spend less time posting "TDS"-driven trash about politics, and quit f**king around with crappy box levels, maybe you could even fix the surface grinder.

Box level restore

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