Price of rescraping mill

Just wonder how much you charge (or has paid) for rescraping of a milling machine ?
Let's say a K&T horizontal univelsal that needs turcite on the table.

What size is the table? Have a model and serial number? Are the ways scored? How deep? This will effect the cost a lot, because it will need to be milled, ground and the price of the Turcite.

These days unless you're prepared to do it yourself the cost will be more than you'd like to pay.

That's why most re-building company's over here have gone out of business.

Regards Tyrone.

Found this the other day

Richard: It is kind of hypothetical, but let's say the table is 12x50" and that the top of the table doesn't need any work, but that it needs turcite underneath.

Tyrone: I have heard about that. I heard a rebuilder had done a complete rebuild on some kind of mill. I can't remember the total price but it was very expensive and he said they didn't make money on it.

Hbjj: That picture is way too small, can't make out anything.

I am not exactly sure what your asking. Over here in the states all the rebuilders I know are swamped. They rebuild plus do service work. I would estimate the average hourly rate they charge is $100.00 per hour plus parts. I used to estimate the scraping of a Bridgeport at 45 to 60 hours and that was for dismantle, assembly, scraping the ways. I quoted the head separately and could usually rebuild a head in 6 to 8 hours. I had the table (and sometimes saddle) ground plus parts. I just called my friend Rick at A&D Machinery repair and asked him (got his machine) what he charges to grind a table. I also will cut and paste the pricing of the Rulon 142 (same as Turcite) last time I ordered some.

I buy mine from Tri-Star Plastics and they sell it by 12" widths x's what ever you want in lengths. 1 - .030" 12 x 36" $62.99 per foot $188.97 Total 1- .047 " 12 x 36" $77.59 per foot $232.77 Total .062 " x 12 x 36" $92.64 per foot $277.92 Total
You also need 2 part epoxy glue. I don't recall the price of a quart kit.

A big K & T would double of triple that just because everything is so heavy and rigging it and flipping it would take 1/3 of the time.
I'm not sure if this answers your question, but hopefully it helps. Rich

Panza said:

Richard: It is kind of hypothetical, but let's say the table is 12x50" and that the top of the table doesn't need any work, but that it needs turcite underneath.

Tyrone: I have heard about that. I heard a rebuilder had done a complete rebuild on some kind of mill. I can't remember the total price but it was very expensive and he said they didn't make money on it.

Hbjj: That picture is way too small, can't make out anything.

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Your asking a hypothetical question?? This means your day dreaming about doing a machine or your looking at repairing your machine??? If not just day dreaming about it is a waste of our time. Rich

There is quite a difference between daydreaming and planning.
You answered the question anyway.

Panza said:

There is quite a difference between daydreaming and planning.
You answered the question anyway.

Click to expand...

Your right there....have fun and when your plan comes together let me know. Remember when you have a fixed spindle machine like a K&T Horiz. Mill you have to start with the spindle and work out. Unlike a vertical mill like a Bridgeport, you start at the column and work out and yu can adjust the vertical head to get the final spec's. There is no way to tweek or adjust the spindle on a fixed spindle if the sweep is off. You can reference this in Chapter 27 page 317 27.2 "Selecting Data point" in the Connelly Book, Machine Tool Reconditioning.

I also have been interested in what a pro would quote. Thanks.

Probably, in order to get some reasonable answers, it is necessary to specify more details on what the quote should include.
Are we talking about a quote for a complete rebuild, including machine survey, disassembling, cleaning, scraping, replacing parts that need to be replaced and servicing serviceable parts, reassembling, and re-surveying the machine, or we're talking only about hiring a scraper to scrape parts to defined dimensions/geometry and, at most, fit parts together, or something in between the two extremes?

Paolo

Richard King said:

Your right there....have fun and when your plan comes together let me know. Remember when you have a fixed spindle machine like a K&T Horiz. Mill you have to start with the spindle and work out. Unlike a vertical mill like a Bridgeport, you start at the column and work out and yu can adjust the vertical head to get the final spec's. There is no way to tweek or adjust the spindle on a fixed spindle if the sweep is off. You can reference this in Chapter 27 page 317 27.2 "Selecting Data point" in the Connelly Book, Machine Tool Reconditioning.

Click to expand...

I still see no simple ballpark prices for a K&T or a B-Port for fixing the ways. (no bearing/screws/head BS, just ways).
Just some basic full bill numbers so people understand that this is not gonna be cheap if you want it done right.
Many if an or's and butts but just some average numbers so people get an idea of the large number of hours needed.
"I just bought a well worn mill for $500, I'll double my investment and pay $500 to have all the ways scraped back in.". Yes/no?
Now, for sure I know the answer to this but there has to be very many that do not.
Being real with people about this price might change some's views of a "good deal".
Bob

Paolo_MD said:

Probably, in order to get some reasonable answers, it is necessary to specify more details on what the quote should include.
Are we talking about a quote for a complete rebuild, including machine survey, disassembling, cleaning, scraping, replacing parts that need to be replaced and servicing serviceable parts, reassembling, and re-surveying the machine, or we're talking only about hiring a scraper to scrape parts to defined dimensions/geometry and, at most, fit parts together, or something in between the two extremes?

Paolo

Click to expand...

Your right. In my estimate on the K & T I did not include dismantling the gear boxes, spindle, mechanical's and electrical's, painting, etc.. Many times on those big heavy duty machines they are scored and need to be milled. That's all extra. I was talking about scraping the ways.

On a Bridgeport they are simple as heck, nothing complicated at all in taking them apart, so the time on that included the cleaning and assembly. Parts, paint were extra. The Myford thread the machine owners did all the mechanical, electrical, painting, they paid for the extra grinding, and parts. I billed for scraping labor.

They also have good electrical cranes. Many hobbyists have engine hoists, so all of that needs to be worked into the time and price. The last few years I bill for scraping labor because mechanical work can be done by the customer or his maintenance men. I don't have to mess around with buying and billing for parts, extra work, etc. Plus when I had the shop I had overhead, insurance, payroll and taxes. No way will I do that again. Now I don't even give a quote as the people I work for have me clock into there time clock so I only charge them an hourly rate. Rich

I found the email from the rebuilder.
Size #4 K&T: Complete rebuild: $54.000. He said he didn't make any money on that.

But as I see it is a waste of money to have someone repaint and replace parts on a milling machine when you can easily do that yourself. Rescraping to as good as or better than new is another thing IMHO.

Panza said:

I found the email from the rebuilder.
Size #4 K&T: Complete rebuild: $54.000. He said he didn't make any money on that.

But as I see it is a waste of money to have someone repaint and replace parts on a milling machine when you can easily do that yourself. Rescraping to as good as or better than new is another thing IMHO.

Click to expand...

That's why the small and medium machine tool re-building game in the UK isn't economically viable anymore. 25-30 years ago we had a thriving re-building sector over here. Most people in business now will just buy a new, modern ( probably CNC ) machine rather than spend that sort of money on an old machine. The home shop sector hasn't ever existed to any great extent in the UK.

The only people I know still working in this field specialise in re-building and retro fitting CNC systems on very large machine tools. I'm talking big Plano Mills, VertIcal & Horizonta Boring machines, huge Centre Lathes etc where the cost of a similar new machine would be astronomical. That's if you can get one with the sturdiness of the old machines.

That bit of the game is still doing OK but the people who ran the sort of operation that Rich runs have nearly all thrown the towel in over the last 10-15 years.

Regards Tyrone.

We need to discuss terms: There are several ways we could approach this. 1) Lets say the machine is running good, but there are signs of wear, the original scrape marks are visible in some places but the gibs are out of adjustment, the accuracy is still OK and the spindle and gear boxes are OK. We would do a RECONDITION of the ways only. Scrape the ways to 12 PPI and 1/2 moon flake them. clean and replace the lube fittings, new way wipers, add some Rulon or Phenolic to the gibs, replace simple parts. Lets say it's a size 2 H. A estimate of labor hours for a reconditioning at 120 hours or $12,000.00.

2) A complete REBUILD which would be to clean, dismantle, scrape ways as good or better then new, update lube system, replace spindle bearings, replace older electrical devices where needed, Replace worn parts, Install Rulon in most cases, use old fasteners and parts that are still usable. Repair and rebuild the machine but not update it. It would be the same machine that it was like when new. Brush paint the machine. Estimate labor at 350 hours or $ 35,000.00 and a wild guess at parts could be close to the $54,000.00 price he was quoted. On a small machine like this I doubt anyone would rebuild (or # 4) the machine as you can buy a good used machine for $10,000.00 as shown below. Kearney Trecker Milling Machine | eBay

On larger machines as Tyrone points out one can 4) RETROFIT, All of the above in number 2 plus new electronics, Installing CNC, retrofit with ball screws, servo's, all new faseners, guards, paint, make the machine better then new in all ways. This would cost the minimum of 50% of a new CNC machine of that size.

I never got into retrofitting. I only recall doing one CNC Cylindrical grinder 20 years ago. But again I only did the mechanical side and the customer had an electronics company do the CNC work.

Here is a friends web-site and how he describes it:

Abbott Machine Services: Machinery Rebuilds, Precision Grinding, Equipment Retrofits & Installs -Abbott Machine Company

Here is a German rebuider who is also swamped. I met the shop foreman who was a scraping student when I was there last spring and rebuilders from 2 other companies who were also swamped. http://www.huttelmaier.de/en/

No Carbide bob, ....We are talking time or hours for an average machine not cost of a cheap machine doubled.

We used to rebuild probably 100 Bridgeports a year in our haydays, so I knew average time and prices on rebuilding them. We did several K&T's too and we would use a basic price we would quote. Many companies wanted a "Not to Exceed" but I used to say "I didn't have a crystal ball" so I would give them an estimate before dismantling and after we had it apart I would give them a parts list that they could purchase and vendors list who they could buy the parts from and machine shops to do the milling and grinding if my machines were not big enough.

I told the customer I would work it by the hour and bill them accordingly. We had and I still have customers who trust me to be honest. I would also ask for 1/2 the estimated labor cost so i didn't act as the bank on labor. For several years we worked as a contractor at Midwestern Machinery who is much like Abbott Machinery is now. We billed weekly on projects as they knew we were honest and were working as fast as we could and doing a good job. I used to work for Abbott too, after I shut down our rebuild company and only worked alone and out of my home as I do now. My work now is to teach a class and if its at a large company, I teach their men to scrape and help them rebuild their machines. In Rebuilding most companies or small one men shops are great mechanics, but they just don't know how to scrape or scrape for alignment as I mentioned before. Once a good mechanic buys the right scraping tools and inspection equipment he can rebuild and rescrape machinery if they have a good teacher :-) Rich

Richard King said:

.. ....We are talking time or hours for an average machine not cost of a cheap machine doubled.

......

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For sure I know this.
You did put some realistic numbers up for review.
The reason I poked was many have no idea how much you spend here after they buy a worn out machine.
It is not inexpensive to do if you have done it or watched others.
But many may not know better so your numbers may be a bit of a sticker shock and a touch of a reality check when they find a screaming deal on a machine that needs a bit of help..
Bob

I agree the pic in post #4 is too small to read. Here's a link to the pic that was posted earlier. It has some generic prices for a Bridgeport rebuild.

Complete Bridgeport Series I Rebuild

John

This is a thread I will follow, I have wondered the economics of rebuilding. I don't understand how a company can sell say a new "jet" for half the cost of rebuilding a Bridgeport. Even after a "rebuild" the handles and other stuff are still used.
My Sheldon lathe had 40 hours of hand scrape work done when new, how on earth is that profitable??