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Question about Moore pattern scraping

dcsipo

Diamond
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Location
Baldwin, MD/USA
I was reading the Moore book and looking at the pattern of the scrape mark, the only way i can imagine that you get a half moon on the push stroke if you start on the corner of the scraper flatten it to the center and back towards the corner. Any one here know what is the body mechanics that is needed to accomplish this? I can get little squiglies on bump scraping but i do not seem to be able to control the blade through the push to get a half moon. Also does anyone know if the scrapers for the more style are sharpened with an even radius? I'll keep trying though :)

dee
;-D
 
I agree with your (corner center corner)motion
My attempt 20161017_151447.jpg
This may be where the saying (it's all in the wrist) came from!
 
Watching a vid of a former Moore employee demonstrating: Assuming right hand operation, the right hand is pushing forward with a scooping motion, down then up at the end of the stroke. The left hand controlling the front of the scraper is simultaneously rocking from a little one side to the other.

I think I've seen someone else using a sideways sweep so there may be more than one way to get there. The progress across the workpiece is across from near edge to far edge, which is different than laying a line of parallel strokes sideways, followed by another line.
 
I watched a demonstration 10 or so years ago where the scraper held the scraper from underneath with his left hand and bumped it with his right hand. His left elbow was pointed straight down with his forearm upward toward the scraper, his wrist cocked back, his thumb pointed back toward his body pressed against the underside of the scraper, and the rest of the fingers of that hand on top of the scraper. He started with the scraper twisted to the left with his thumb, then simultaneously bumped the handle and twisted the scraper to the right with his fingers. The result was a hook shaped scrape.
Can you picture that, did I describe it clearly? The blade was radiused, IIRC it was a fairly short radius, but this was before I knew anything at all of scraping.
I've tried it and it works, but since I attended Richard King's school I've been doing it his way, mostly because it's more comfortable and I get good results with it.
The demo was at the Cabin Fever show when it was held in the old hall at York. The demonstrator was from NJ, IIRC his name was John but I don't remember any more.
 
Hunter Hightower ,,member and former student learned the technique from a former Moore service tech in Portland. He told me in an email that the depth isn't as deep. I will email him to come on and show you and tell you. I think he did an Instigram show too. Rich
 
Watching a vid of a former Moore employee demonstrating: Assuming right hand operation, the right hand is pushing forward with a scooping motion, down then up at the end of the stroke. The left hand controlling the front of the scraper is simultaneously rocking from a little one side to the other.

I think I've seen someone else using a sideways sweep so there may be more than one way to get there. The progress across the workpiece is across from near edge to far edge, which is different than laying a line of parallel strokes sideways, followed by another line.

I see your point about the rocking vs sweeping, but i just cannot see controlling the scraper in sweep to lay down a neat half moon. From the book and the description one starts in the valley before the high spot and sweeps into the high spot and back into the next valley. The pattern moves forward at an angle from the edge to the far edge. The legs of the moons seem to cross each other. It is somewhat counter intuitive to me, since it is just so much easier to lay down crosses and then pick at the high spots. This pattern seems more methodological. I think i have enough info now to give it an honest try. I'll prolly fail miserably :).

I'll post pictures if i come up with anything useful.

In the meantime here is the picture form the Moore book....

moore.jpg

dee
;-D
 
Hunter Hightower ,,member and former student learned the technique from a former Moore service tech in Portland. He told me in an email that the depth isn't as deep. I will email him to come on and show you and tell you. I think he did an Instigram show too. Rich

Thanks Rich,

You are awesome...

dee
;-D
 
I'm using a straight push no sweep and about a 40 mm radi tool
I'm thinking a compound radius might help like 30/50/30 mm radi on a 20 mm long edge
 
In the meantime here is the picture form the Moore book....

View attachment 182825

dee
;-D

The Moore picture might be confusing on technique. He's obviously very methodical in the photo which would be counter to working down high spots so I'm wondering if what they show is just a final dressing of the surface after they've essentially established the accuracy and not a picture of the real meat of the work. In other words, if you're picking points it would have to be more irregular so he couldn't be working down high areas or breaking up spots.
 
I would guess all of us professionals are copy cats in one way or fashion. I copied my dads and other professionals scraping techniques as scraping is not rocket science. I just never learned how to scrape that push and twist method. The Moore way as RC states was probably copied or learned from a pro who Moore met. He probably called it the Kittson or UK method. I wish Hunter would write, but it's a school night and he probably can't. He is still in HS you know. He is one of the smartest 17 year old kids I have met. He sought out this guy who worked at Moore who was selling his tools and Hunter bought his cast iron moore scraped master and ceramic square and asked him to show him how to scrape. Hunter wrote me comparing what I taught him in our 3 day 2 on 1 class and what this man told and showed him. He said our scraping techniques are different and the Moore guy and I do not agree on everything.

On another note, There is a company in Minneapolis called Professional Instruments and they also have an off shoot called Air Bearings, Inc. They had a close working relationship with Moore as they used the base of the Jig Bores to make some sort of magnetic tape machine that fed it onto precision reels...I'm not exactly sure how and what it did, I just saw those Moore bases inside their shop. My Dad and the owner were friends as my Dad used to scrape the machines in their shop...well to make this story short...Ted Arnison the owner arranged to have 2 of their men go to Moore and learn how to scrape. They spent a few weeks out there working side by side with their journeymen scrapers who taught them how to scrape the Moore method. When they returned Ted called me and asked me to teach those same guys how to use a BIAX as the Moore guys were then using BIAX until their signature pass or last couple of passes.

I spent a couple of days showing those 2 guys how to use the BIAX. One thing odd about what those guys learned from Moore was they didn't show them how to do rule 4. Check the hinge... I was wholely surprised, shocked as a matter of fact. When I left these guys were doing the rules 1 - 4...lol...

I once hired a Russian imagrant that learned to scrape in Kiev Ukraine and he pushed forward like the Moore book picture Jan posted, but he did not twist the scraper. I had him scraping Jib Bores at Kurt Manufacturing where my Dad scraped and did all of their Jib Bores before he passed away. Bill Kuban who owned Kurt told me the techniques the Russian was doing, was different then my Dads techniques, but the points were the same.

On my last trip to Germany to teach, the German pro's who wre kind enough to invite BIAX and I to teach a class inside there shop also scraped the way my Russian friend scraped. A body arm push with-out the pad on the end of their scraper. They had a beautiful bearing. They also wanted to learn how to scrape using the BIAX as they had always felt it was for roughing and they finished by hand.

Bottom line is no one method is better then another. I can scrape more points faster with a BIAX, I can hand and power flake to get the same look at the Moore look. Moore, Sip and other new machine builders advanced to using the BIAX not only because it was faster, it was a hell of a lot easier on their bodies. But on their last signature pass they did there hand method. I have said for years, I don't care how you scrape, as long as you get it done as accurately and fast as my method or the hand me down German method that a Journeyman taught my Dad.

I leaned from him and my best friend and old Forman Craig Laurich who was critical in showing me how to scrape 40 PPI with a BIAX as we used to rough scrape with them too. He was goofing around with the BIAX and discovered he could scrape 40 PPI with our old 7ESM. I had him then rebuild the Jig Bores for Denis Hoff in Mpls and he ised the Biax and we had special ground BIAX flaker blades at 40 bottom radius to flake the Moore's so we could copy the more finish pass. I used to scrape Jig bores by hand the same way my dad did before Craig and I figured out how to scrape 40 PPI with them. Had to have been in the late 1970's. Craig started his own company way back when and we continued to be best friends...He now scrapes center hole grinders and other super precision machines with his BIAX. My students will testify I prefer to scrape using the BIAX to scrape 40 PPI...I can still scrape 40 PPI by hand too...but God, why would I. lol

Pic's were taken in Germany, showing their Journeyman hand scraping, His finished work and the BIAX scraping 40 PPI.
 

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There are many ways to do the Moore technique, you can even power scrape it. Though that one I'll save for another day. Also that would be cheating :). You gotta' suffer at least a little.

There are two main ways, both can be used for roughing and finishing. Though Moore had different ppi, percentage of contact, and depth of scrape mark for their machines. Their measuring machines are scraped very differently than the other machines. If scraped the normal way, it will cause it to be unusable till corrected. Also masters are scraped differently. I was also taught a way to get ways flatter than .00005" per ft. I messed a bit around with it got my 30" straight edge .00006" flat overall or 24 millionths per ft.

I'll stop blabbering on and I'll get straight to the technique. Also remember this technique does not need stoning after a pass if done correctly. Though you should follow up with a light stone till you get better with it. So you rotate the blade either from the center out or corner to the center vise versa. You can either rotate with the hand holding the handle or push down on the front near the blade. You push down with the palm of your hand while the hand holding the handle end is rotating in the palm of your hand. While you do this, you lock your arm on your side. Make sure you have a sharp blade and make sure your movement is consistent. The radius of your blade is 60 or 50 the smaller ones are a pain to use. Though with the 50 or 60 you can make any size half moon you want.

Lets go through one stroke... You start by putting your blade on the right corner. With the handle held in your right hand making a C shape so the handle will rest in the center of the palm of your hand. Your left is holding the front of the scraper as if your were doing normal push scraping. Your right arm is locked against your side. Now you push forward and while doing that you start rotating towards the center by pushing down on the left half of the scraper with the left hand. Then half way through the stroke you rotate backwards forming the other half of the half moon. Or you could do it the easy way by rotating the handle and applying pressure in the front. I would try to make large half moons and as you get better start making smaller and smaller half moons. The smaller amount you rotate the smaller the half moon.

You see Hbjj's photo, how the half moons have little tails or lines that extend at the ends of the marks? That's because of over rotation of the scraper. You can prevent this by using a small blade though that would be cheating :).

I have a Moore master plate for no.3 tables. Earlier this year Moore sold their master plates or one of each set. They sold for less than a 1000$ each. I have seen a Moore no.4 umm that was used to prototype the first CD-ROM. I have also seen a custom Moore no.5 ucmm that had extended height and high load bearing packs on the ways. It had a cylindrical quill that could extend all the way down to touch the table. It was custom made for Oak Ridge Laboratories.

Professional instruments sounds like a cool place to get a tour of. They use a Moore No.4 to fly cut spindle housings. I would visit NIST just to see the Moore machines.

Normally I wouldn't share this info. I just don't like sharing things about their technique. It takes longer than push scraping, can't be used on dovetails, and it takes longer to learn. I was told once, that information is valuable no matter how useful or useless it seems. I contacted Moore to see if I could confirm what I know with them. They told me to go read the books, as it is a trade secret.

I scraped a little 6"x6" surface plate for a friend. I was doing the Moore technique. It was taking so long to rough it. I decided I would "scrape paint" till it has 5 or 10 ppi then do the rest in Moore's style. Which it proved to be a lot faster.

Hope this helps.
 
Thanks, Hunter.
This is the best description of the technique I've came across so far. I think that, for most everything, I'll stick to Richard's technique. However, I'd like to learn it and master it for when I need to touch up my jig borer, rotary table, and anything that was originally scraped with that technique.

Paolo
 
I sure like the finish from a Biax after finish scraping. I think it looks great. Dixi was big on the checkerboard pattern and even did it larger style on nonfunctional parts of some old machines. Wyler straightedges often had the checkerboard too. I've never quite gotten crecents for finishing of anything other than machine ways but no doubt Moore knew what they were doing.

I've seen a couple of SIP machines that looked like straight Biax work but they may have been touched up sometime in the last 40 years.

Friend of mine in Detroit told me about SIP guys coming in from Geneva to touch up one of their machines. White coats and shit, seemed a little snotty. Then they started asking about the Devliegs in the shop and had a lot of respect for them so they were cool [emoji5] .
 
Thanks, Hunter.
This is the best description of the technique I've came across so far. I think that, for most everything, I'll stick to Richard's technique. However, I'd like to learn it and master it for when I need to touch up my jig borer, rotary table, and anything that was originally scraped with that technique.

Paolo

I just want to see if i can do it :) i am certain that for most things i to just stick with checker boards. If i learn the Moore pattern, then there is always that special piece. Or just do it as a decorative element.

dee
;-D
 
Hope this helps.

You bet your crusties...This does not seem to be widely known. Thanks for sharing. You show up in these woods...wanna go...not camping, but see NIST? Let me know i might be able to work another deal. Although we got lucky and got to touch the Moore CMM. When they are temperature balanced no one can enter.

dee
;-D
 
Tried and failed, i heard Richard making chicken noises behind me. I am not giving up though....laid down a checkerboard to cover it up, will be back at it. When it looks like scraping i will post pixtures.


dee
;-D
 
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