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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmersamm View Post
    Those little bitty cap screws didn't look to be able to stand up the torque required to bend a single slit assembly, or more importantly (leastways that's my thinking)….I didn't feel the small fine thread in the 1018 would stand the torque.

    I had considered bronze shim stock, but figured it was so out in left field that it would just draw a huge laugh. I'm glad someone (you and another poster) feels it's a viable alternative. Personally I feel it's more cost effective. No need to buy exotic adhesives to stick it to the saddle. I'm thinking a Loctite anaerobic would do nicely.
    Ignorant Goodyear Pliobond worked years ago. It was all about surface cleanliness, though.

    Look - fair warning - this is what we call a "monkey patch". It has already attracted evil PM begging and pleading from at least one deranged mind who feels his whole universe has been put at risk. That's insanity, pure and simple.

    Bronze shims are simple as well. The shim stock is already a known thickness, pick one or several. The gross error of the bed wear is too great to economically scrape .That particular lathe No Fine Way justifies grinding or even planing its soft bed.

    Just try to knock the WORST of the error down by whatever you can, then work around whatever is left.

    It won't do any significant damage as milling clearance for a Magic Plastic MUST do to get clearance for itself plus a bond-line, so if you hit the lottery and just want to f**k with a cheap-ass lathe for shits and giggles, you can still come back and do that to this very machine, any future day.

    Wiser use of your time to do the absolute minimum with this one to get it "good enough" to get bustid machinery back in the field and paying the bills, faster rather than slower.

    Hold to that priority. Let it provide money and time "in due course" to acquire a far BETTER lathe that IS worthy of time and effort to restore.

    Or perhaps no such thing, if your personal interests in life lie elsewhere, money in your jeans or no.

    This one is not "evil". Just not worth a lot of effort or concern, either.

    2CW

  2. #22
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    Bronze came to the rescue when repairing a nasty crater in the saddle.

    Rather than fill the crater, I redesigned the entire mounting system for the cross slide leadscrew.

    lathe148-1.jpg The original design only used one set screw to hold the leadscrew in the saddle.

    Later models didn't use this design, probably because of its weakness. So I upgraded.

    lathe143-1.jpg

    lathe145-1.jpg

    lathe147-1.jpg

    Thick enough stock was used to allow for a shoulder that could be filled with a braze weld.

    lathe149-1.jpg

  3. #23
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    Drilled, and hole centers transferred to the saddle

    lathe158-1.jpg

    Drilled, and tapped. Godawful setup on the small drill press.

    lathe160-1.jpg

    And we're good to go.

    lathe163-1.jpg

  4. #24
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    Clausing calls this a "gib", so I'm calling it a gib

    lathe250.jpg

    Old one cracked at the bolt hole. Loose as this lathe is, I'm sure they cranked down as hard as they could to steady it up to compensate for wear. Dunno.

    lathe208.jpg

    More milling.


    lathe228.jpg

    lathe231.jpg

    lathe232.jpg

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    lathe233.jpg

    lathe246.jpg

    Only thing left to do is cut the slots that allow the thing to flex when tightened. I'll get around to that this Fall, when all the farm work is done.

    BTW...the wear surface on the "gib" is gonna be overlayed with bronze to keep from wearing the underside of the ways.

    Anyways, these are a few of the highlights so far. Headstock is finished, saddle almost finished I guess. Next have to rework the tailstock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by farmersamm View Post
    lathe233.jpg

    lathe246.jpg

    Only thing left to do is cut the slots that allow the thing to flex when tightened. I'll get around to that this Fall, when all the farm work is done.

    BTW...the wear surface on the "gib" is gonna be overlayed with bronze to keep from wearing the underside of the ways.
    just sand or stone off the surface, and don't sweat it, the difference in how bronze vs steel "wears" the underside of the ways is completely insignificant unless you are operating for hours every day on a machine that matters.

    TOTALLY ridiculous to even consider that here, just geeterdone!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyanidekid View Post
    just sand or stone off the surface, and don't sweat it, the difference in how bronze vs steel "wears" the underside of the ways is completely insignificant unless you are operating for hours every day on a machine that matters.

    TOTALLY ridiculous to even consider that here, just geeterdone!!!!
    Aw Hell, you're probably right about the underside of the ways.

    Far as the rest of it...….dunno about the philosophical difference.

    "Get 'er done", and what "matters" are terms of degree I guess.

    Overly fast, and less than 'best of ones ability', work habits will transfer to anything done in life. You lower standards in one aspect, and it flows to other endeavors. It's a downhill slide. One I regrettably see on a regular basis these days.

    Dumping close to $500 (which is extremely reasonable price wise) in hard chrome buildup, and grind, on the spindle shaft might be considered insane. I tend to disagree. Removing a few thou runout (beyond original design runout) goes a long way to reduce the additive effect of overall wear on a tired machine. This crap all adds up in terms of ultimate error.

    Far as "machines that matter"...Depends on your point of view I guess.

    As modern business's go, farming is as sophisticated as any other facet of GDP. Gone are the days of the 'hayseed' shuffling around in manure caked boots. Capital investment in most operations would surprise most folks. It's a high stakes game, the risk born by individuals with limited resources. I might also point out that it's a multi discipline business. We ain't one trick ponies anymore. Soil management, crop management, livestock management, equipment maintenance, investment management...…….. And it's all ultimately a roll of the dice. We're at the whim of Mother Nature. Old saying: "You better respect Mother Nature, cause' she doesn't respect you".

    That being said. In the scheme of things, it's a matter of priority. Any operation involves equipment with degrees of descending utilization. I'll put more hours on my feed tractor than on my primary tillage tractor etc. Same goes with shop equipment. Hand tools, welding equipment, machine tools in descending order. Lathe being somewhere close to the least used tool in the box, but it has to perform as best as it can when needed. So it does matter I guess.

    A guy could go out an plunk down 3-10K on an imported machine, further destroying the balance of trade. Or spend some scratch on domestic parts, and labor, to rehab an old American machine. Luckily I have that luxury. Besides, it makes good reading for folks doing the same thing

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    Moglice = "Duraglass"

    The stuff with extra long glass fibers in it....

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    Quote Originally Posted by farmersamm View Post
    A guy could go out an plunk down 3-10K on an imported machine, further destroying the balance of trade. Or spend some scratch on domestic parts, and labor, to rehab an old American machine. Luckily I have that luxury. Besides, it makes good reading for folks doing the same thing
    Yah but... whilst we are on basically the same page as to keeping it at home.. You aren't looking at even $2,000, let alone $4K and up - to have started - or even right NOW - START OVER - with a far better Old Iron mount as seed-corn, here.

    The best part is that the better "candidates" are also better-suited to flex schedule, incremental restorals. They were built to "tolerate" rather a lot of wear with lesser effects on ability to still make acceptable parts. Also stressed differently so the wear proceeded at a far slower rate, even when run hard.

    Classic example, the legendary Hendey "tie bar". A simple machine, cheap and easy to fix, enduring stout. And it had competition from other "Grand Old" cone heads. It just lived better, longer, than most.

    The give-away wide, deep, heavy beds and very long carriages that distributed loads and wear, moved a tool-tip less even when worn partly due to simply having a longer "lever arm" off even a worn-to-rocking-horse-curved carriage wing.

    Person can be making parts off one of these proven performers before much of anything has been done to fix 'em up. As resources permit, incremental upgrades are rolled-in.

    An even better part is those upgrades will last, and for scores of years, not need done-over in a part-time user's entire natural lifetime.

    That's a superb "ROI" there.

    Roll-forward and upward through geared-heads and such, but always the heavier, better-grade "industrial" machine-tools, and find much the same:

    Return On Investment - money, sweat, time, skill, or research learning-curve are all far superior to that one can extract out of hobby grade, or "hobby-grade plus a bit" lightweight goods. Those cannot retain the "goodness" injected off your very best efforts for very long.

    Doesn't have to be a hyped-up or "legendary" Monarch, ATW, Lodge & Shipley, Axelson, Herringbone Sydney or such.

    There are a short TON of merely "decent", but genuine "industrial grade" machines out there that have that better "ROI".

    And the "all manual" machines often go rather more cheaply than the ever-so "popular" South Bend light/hobby lathes do.

    You don't need a machine you can backpack down the basement stairs or hand-truck up to a third-floor walkup apartment, do yah?

    Put a little more Iron in yer diet. It's good for the red blood cells!

    2CW

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    Bronze will be the material of choice, all things considered.

    Brazing is out. Too much heat input. Things will move with all that heat.

    Shimming is the obvious choice.

    I've been looking at available shim material. All I can find is Phosphor Bronze (510). A preliminary search yields thickness availability limited to mostly .005 . This is a quick search mind you. This brings up questions as to the problems associated with laminating the shim stock to get to the required buildout. Each layer of adhesive will introduce error I figure.

    Other concerns are machinability, which will be related to final fitment. Gonna have to smoogie this thing to run true when it's done. 510 Bronze has a machinability rating of 20. Less than the 660 Bronze I'm familiar with, that has a rating of 70. 510 is a tempered material in most available forms from what I see. H02 1/2 temper in most variants I can source. I dunno how this will affect workability. I know doggone well I'm gonna have to do something to bring this stuff close to a good fitment.

    I was also concerned with hardness. It's apparently not a real concern (If I'm correct)

    610 runs around 65 BHN.

    510 is running at around 60-85 BHN in HO2 temper.

    Grey cast iron is running at 183-234 BHN. It should be considered that bed ways are probably some sort of alloy (possibly with some steel tossed in, or something equivalent, God Only Knows what they used back in the day). In addition, my ways are hardened. The 4805, and it's bigger brother (5300 series) share this feature.

    catalog-page.jpg

    So, if I'm correct, there shouldn't be excessive wear problems using shim stock.

    Not sure how slippery 510 is, when compared to 660. I need to find some info on this.

    Associated reading material for those interested:

    Phosphor Bronze Physical & Chemical Properties

    Bronze Alloy Charts, Leaded Tin Bronzes | Advance Bronze

    http://www.matweb.com/search/datashe...87f1e9d&ckck=1

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    Quote Originally Posted by farmersamm View Post
    I've been looking at available shim material. All I can find is Phosphor Bronze (510). A preliminary search yields thickness availability limited to mostly .005 .
    Get you an assortment. "Bronze shim stock sets"

    McMaster-Carr

    They have lots more "stuff"..



    Cheap as such things go, and well worth it for the avoidance of CHRONIC lost time chasing thicknesses, browsing the net for sources, or otherwise f****g about with glueing stuff.

    First two slices I cut off two different sheets, whole kit was paid for many times over just in time saved.

    What is "almost right" serves also as a gage or trial-run, then you can order to the closer fit to any given need if justified.

    What you do not use "somewhere", even if under leveling feet, you can horse-trade.

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    "Put a little more Iron in yer diet. It's good for the red blood cells!"

    Don't quite need to carry it on my back, but overall size, and weight is a real consideration here.

    I'm working with a wood floor, in a very confined area.

    lathe4.jpg

    lathe38.jpg

    lathe39.jpg

    The floor has been a real problem. Weight distribution, and vibration when running a machine.

    I've had reasonably good luck with the milling machine using steel plate to distribute the load. The same principle is carried through on the lathe.

    lathe18.jpg Foot plate designed to spread the load.

    lathe23.jpg As installed currently. Leveling (actually more correctly making it planar) will happen later.

    In my next life I plan to be a millionaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by farmersamm View Post
    The floor has been a real problem. Weight distribution, and vibration when running a machine.
    ...

    In my next life I plan to be a millionaire
    I am a millionaire. Lotta years at it. Many here are. A million just ain't what it used to be.

    Didn't get that way pissing time or money into anything "low ROI", either.

    The pissing-away money part came in me Old Age! How'd yah think I knew so much about it?



    In my PAST life I learned to use gypsum or Portland cement to stabilize and ram ignorant DIRT (rented 'plate tamper" is cheap enough) to work better than a suspended wood floor. Concrete can be cheap, too. Yah don't need a whole airfield.

    Or to reinforce a wooden floor.

    Fix yer STRUCTURAL problem first - simple carpentry - or the machine-tools will just play with YOU instead of the reverse.

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    Thank You. I never look at McMaster as a rule. You're a life saver.

    Eyeball with feeler gauge.....I'm about .025-.030 out on the saddle. Saddle is just short of 12" long. A guy could do this!

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    Anyways....gotta git. Doing a door install, and AC repair, on some dooooods tractor (swapping labor for hay).

    You've been a real help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by farmersamm View Post
    Thank You. I never look at McMaster as a rule. You're a life saver.

    Eyeball with feeler gauge.....I'm about .025-.030 out on the saddle. Saddle is just short of 12" long. A guy could do this!
    Always START with McMaster. Because they have stuff. Then see if you can find cheaper. You may. You won't hardly EVER find consistently faster and better, though. MMC are as good at wot they do as anybody ever was, anywhere, any time.

    Bronze? Guys have BEEN doing this. For a Hell of a lot more than a hundred years. "Magic Plastic" is actually pretty old. BY NOW. Some say they have even fixed the 40:1 differential in thermal co-efficient of expansion vs Cast Iron. Bronze is still waaaay closer.

    Keep in mind you can "play with" less than 100% length run under that saddle, a mild relief at the center is SOP, anyway, different thicknesses left and right of center if that levels it better, same again front ways, rear ways. Adapt to the wear that's there. Allow some "wear in", too. It be a "monkey patch" after all. This ain't no Schaublin lathe.

    IOW - apply the universal "80/20 rule".

    Seek to gain 80 % of the improvement at 20% of the cost and time to chase the OTHER 20% of the gain.


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    Quote Originally Posted by farmersamm View Post
    Anyways....gotta git. Doing a door install, and AC repair, on some dooooods tractor (swapping labor for hay).

    You've been a real help.
    G'mum got too old to run her own small herd, she swapped pasturage and hay with a much younger neighbour for a calf off to the butcher once a year.

    IF you have the time.. see if you can find a PM thread on a Japanese lathe a member up Alaska was restoring. That one had gibs, left and right of center, front slanted way, designed-in from the factory.

    "Differential" adjustment was possible as to leveling the cross, which matters when using the compound, and even right-angle deviation of the axis of cross-slide travel to long-axis. Which impacts facing being either slightly concave, convex, or "Dead Nuts" flat.

    Not suggesting you try to duplicate any of that. If it was a REALLY good idea, all lathes would be built that way. And they are not.

    But CAN make you better aware of what is likely to be an accidental byproduct of the use of pre-made shims, fixed thickness, any material, under an unevenly worn saddle.

    You'll want to be alert to not alter those alignments in an unwanted manner. Or. at least be AWARE of how much they have changed so as to compensate as you use the machine.

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    I've been dreading actually finding out how far it's off. Fore/aft, front/back.

    A very preliminary check, about sometime last Winter.....The saddle doesn't rock on the ways. This isn't dispositive. I'm thinking although it might be firm, it's probably worn more on the side nearest the headstock. I figure this end would take the most force when cutting. I'm sure I'm worn to a slope.

    Plan is to square up the bed, then start to figure out just where I'm at. This ought to be sometime in October.

    Being inside a container, which isn't level, and has a good drop on the headstock end, it's going to be a challenge.

    To my dismay I discovered, while rebuilding the headstock, that oiling is accomplished along the spindle shaft by distributing the oil through channels in the bronze bushing inside the gear cluster. Not a bad deal in itself...BUT THE DOGGONE OILER IS ON THE DOWNHILL SIDE OF THE GEAR CLUSTER.

    So now I actually have to level the machine to some degree. Ought to be about 1 1/2 to 2" rise on the headstock end. Doable, but easier than leveling the container. Leveling the container will make the doors inoperable....be digging into the dirt if the other end is raised.

    Far as making the bed planar...I saw a very good video on using a plumb bob.

    Metal Lathe 11, Tip #1: Leveling your lathe - YouTube

    When working to a less than level floor, it would be pretty simple to "level" to either end of the lathe. Do an initial setup at that location, index the plumb bob base, then bring the other end to the same index mark with shims.

    This isn't appreciably different than the method I use to build large stuff when welding. I don't worry about level, I worry about planar. I build off of sawhorses. Set opposing beams on them, then eye sight the air gap between the beam surfaces from a distance. Shim to close the gap, and you're golden. You'd be amazed at how accurate the ol' peepers are. It's what you do when the roof on the welding shop is the pretty blue sky

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    Quote Originally Posted by farmersamm View Post
    I've been dreading actually finding out how far it's off. Fore/aft, front/back.

    A very preliminary check, about sometime last Winter.....The saddle doesn't rock on the ways. This isn't dispositive. I'm thinking although it might be firm, it's probably worn more on the side nearest the headstock. I figure this end would take the most force when cutting. I'm sure I'm worn to a slope.

    Plan is to square up the bed, then start to figure out just where I'm at. This ought to be sometime in October.

    Being inside a container, which isn't level, and has a good drop on the headstock end, it's going to be a challenge.

    To my dismay I discovered, while rebuilding the headstock, that oiling is accomplished along the spindle shaft by distributing the oil through channels in the bronze bushing inside the gear cluster. Not a bad deal in itself...BUT THE DOGGONE OILER IS ON THE DOWNHILL SIDE OF THE GEAR CLUSTER.

    So now I actually have to level the machine to some degree. Ought to be about 1 1/2 to 2" rise on the headstock end. Doable, but easier than leveling the container. Leveling the container will make the doors inoperable....be digging into the dirt if the other end is raised.

    Far as making the bed planar...I saw a very good video on using a plumb bob.

    Metal Lathe 11, Tip #1: Leveling your lathe - YouTube

    When working to a less than level floor, it would be pretty simple to "level" to either end of the lathe. Do an initial setup at that location, index the plumb bob base, then bring the other end to the same index mark with shims.

    This isn't appreciably different than the method I use to build large stuff when welding. I don't worry about level, I worry about planar. I build off of sawhorses. Set opposing beams on them, then eye sight the air gap between the beam surfaces from a distance. Shim to close the gap, and you're golden. You'd be amazed at how accurate the ol' peepers are. It's what you do when the roof on the welding shop is the pretty blue sky
    Sorry.. I think you have too many challenges already as to any sort of even HALF VAST restoration to NOT level that container.

    You cannot KNOW if the saddle WOULD rock on the ways if you do not know if the bed is twisted, and if so, (as it will be, lathe this light..) by how much, in what direction, and what is needed to get that twist OUT.

    "Dig into the dirt" only if you don't raise BOTH ends of it. I don't mean turn it into a Bandar Seri Begawan waterside stilt-house, either.

    Just get DECENT grillage under it and sort stiffening the floor.

    EVERYTHNG you wish to do to that sad 'ole lathe will REMAIN mostly "wish" - plus a short-ton of scarce time wasted - if it is a constantly moving target.

    I mean. Oil source is DOWNHILL of the spindle? Let's get REAL here.

    I wouldn't try to boil water for a packet of Ramen noodles in the North Woods if my camp stove was that bad off-kilter.

    Plumb bob? Yah. Got some of those. Surveyors Compass, too. Should have. Family business at one time.

    But any half-decent CARPENTER'S level will get you closer, faster for this puppy. Proper Machinist level even more so.

    No point in a Master Precision level until you get it on more solid ground than even a WELL reinforced container's deck. As-in concrete shop floor, and over properly compacted subgrade.

    Actually. not even then. Save the price of it towards a better lathe or do without the level if none such.

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    You mention thickness. I have 1mm and the ends are squashed .002. Should I go with 1.2mm? I guess my concern is hob fitment later. I can always resale what I don’t use.


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