Recommended Bayer or Ink Roller??? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Not all surface plates are the same shade of grey, so going by the visual look of the blue alone gives me a hard time.

    Easiest way I've found to see how thick/thin the blue is is in how it prints. You want it to be somewhat transparent and visibly even across the whole surface, but at that point I'll print a surface (preferably one I know is good like a straight edge) and see what it looks like. If all your spots are thick, it could be a little thick. If you only pick up a couple faint marks, too thin. If you get a variety of thick, and thin points acorss the surface, it's a good print. At that point you can usually see what color or thinness it looks like on that surface plate and maintain it.

    Often I find that when I start rough scraping and printing, a thick print is preferred, and as I continue to roll it out between prints, it will thin out to give better prints as the surface becomes flat.

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  3. #22
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    This is the Speedball brayer that I was so disgusted with. Wooden core with holes drilled way off-center and not in the same plane. Probably I just got a bad specimen, but it's disturbing that their manufacturing process could even create one like that.

    The inexpensive alternatives I ordered arrived and I had a chance to play with them. This is the one that I was asked about above. Apparently the identical item is sold under lots of brand names, not unusual for a cheap import. I like it. Feels good in the hand. Plastic core is properly centered, with metal axles and yoke as in the Speedball. Rubber is hard, as I prefer. Handle is comfortable, and a quick trial on the surface plate doesn't show any lumps or divots in the roller. Can be turned over to "rest" with roller off table.

    This is the other one I tried out. Comes with interchangeable hard and soft rubber rollers. Hard roller is hard. All plastic construction, and the handle is very uncomfortable to my hand. Can be turned over to "rest" with roller off table.

  4. #23
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    Speedball Deluxe Hard Rubber Brayer - 80 Durometer Roller With Heavy Duty Steel Frame - 4 Inches https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003IFUR9I..._SgIHDbCXWY14V
    This appears to be identical the Mr Frieberg's first purchase but I can't account for our different product experiences. At $10.48 from Blick, it's suspiciously cheap.

    The link I posted above appears to be the authentic non-knock-off Speedball #51 roller/breyer I used for the scraping classes I taught. It's effective, sturdy, and not at all expensive. Note it has a stout handle, a steel frame, and a brass roller axle. One of the two I have is over 30 years old and has been through the wars. Except for chipped paint, it speads media as well as the newer one. I must have bought dozens in the time I was teaching scraping and sold most at cost to my students. While the link is for the harder rubber version (80 Durometer,) the medium hardness, soft, and even the foam rollers work well. I prefer the hard rubber only because it cleans up a bit easier and for some reason does a slightly better job picking up chips, hair and fuzz from the media film.

    You don't have to spend big money to purchase quality products but you do have to do your research and shop carefully, particularly when shopping on-line when all you have to go by is a few images and some misleading text.

  5. #24
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    Forrest, judging from the customer reviews at that Amazon link, Speedball has dropped the ball on that particular item. Looks like new ones are not nearly to the same standard as your older ones.

  6. #25
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    When I was an apprentice back in the 1960's we never used a ink roller we used hard white felt or a red rage folded in 4 ths and rolled tight and wrapped with electrical tape. The end of the rag got a waxy shine to it after rubbing on the blue and after a week or so we tossed that one and used another. The key to any application of ink with or with out a roller, you HAVE to wipe it with your fingers so you can feel the crud or fine chips that get into the bluing. Either from some jerk spraying a machine down the line with an air hose, dropping off the crane your using to lift things, dirt floating in the air. You can't assume the ink is clean after rolling it on. You can't assume just using a clean rag will clean the part to be blued as it may have lint of fine chips on it. You have to wipe with your hand to feel. If you feel it and can wipe itoff with your fingers, fine. If not clean wash off the blue and reblue it. Also the rollers get dirty, clean them or wash them. As I have said and MB has told you, place the roller inside a plastic bag or Tupperware box between applications.

    I also now use Canode bluing and Charponel as it washes off with soap and water. I believe Dykem blue is the best, but it stains everything.

  7. #26
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    When using a brayer, I find that if there are any bits of crud (or even eye lash hairs!) on the plate, they tend to get picked up by the roller and then leave a repeating pattern on the plate. If this happens, it's an easy matter to find the crud on the roller and wipe it off with a lint-free cloth.

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  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    Yes Forrest is right on the depth as I studied this in Taiwan at PMC the research center I taught at. I posted those results several years ago. I am glad Forrest remembers. I hear he had boxes full of forum print out outs in his crowded home. Thanks Forest. A simple way to think about thickness of the bluing is it is transparent so you can see tru it when scraping. There is exceptions to that rule depending on what you doing and how much it weighs. On my first few scrapes I put on a little extra on so if I missed a burr I won't scratch the part or straight edge. Also what bluing are you using. Peratex blue is so greasy and smears easy we use a small amount. more later
    Missed your post. I prefer Dykem. About 40 years ago, I was detailed to the toolmakers to help with conditioning the shipyard's huge collection of surface plates so they could be listed in the calibration program. That's when the question of transfer medium film thickness came up. The room where this was going on was right next to the metrology room so measuring the film was a simple matter of collaboration and fetching the instrument. 40 to 80 millionths was the figure we settled on and the traditional metric of vivid color you can see thru complied with measured film.

    The contrast medium (traditionally red lead oxide in a grease or oil bound cake) is best if 5 to 20 millionths thick. Remember that Prussian blue and red lead oxide are very soft on the Moh scale even softer than talc. Other pigments may be harder so the particle size may be an irreducible factor in obtaining a minumum film thickness.

    While quantifying film thickness may thrill calibration dweebs who need to produce in-house standards to justify their paychecks, we who labor in the trenches get along fine using long established shop practice.

    That said, the advantage of physically measuring film thickness is that it works for nearly opaque transfer media like the Canode line from Dapra. If this stuff is new to you or your organization, a simple measurement will quickly establish the desired look and feel of the transfer medium film, saving some hours of experimentation.

    As for easy clean-up, the Canode line is definitely easier to clean up but I seldom used it when I was active. I had plenty of Prussian blue. Odd thing though. My scraping classes ran 12 to 30 people each making frequent trips to the surface plate, which threatened congestion. Accordingly, I set up three surface plates; two with Prussian blue and one with Canode. No waiting, or so I thought. Everyone tried both but most settled on the Prussian blue, preferring to wait for access. Those that preferred the Canode expressed strong preference. There were even spirited discussions I had to mediate. Go figure.

    Personnaly, I'm for whatever works.

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  11. #28
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    Nice to see you posting again, Forrest.

    Regards,
    Lucky7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    Just to set the record straight.

    If you were such and expert scraper why did you hire me to teach (what I believe 3 -
    1 week classes) scraping for your Apprentices and Journeymen where you (Bremerton Naval Shipyard) worked back in the 1980's? Remember you attended them. This was long before you started teaching classes based on mine, IMHO.
    The guys been back 5 minutes, zero need for this!

  14. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    Just to set the record straight.

    If you were such and expert scraper why did you hire me to teach (what I believe 3 -
    1 week classes) scraping for your Apprentices and Journeymen where you (Bremerton Naval Shipyard) worked back in the 1980's? Remember you attended them. This was long before you started teaching classes based on mine, IMHO.
    I think Forrest might have missed the memo that this is a competition.
    Glad to see you back Forrest!

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  16. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    Just to set the record straight.

    If you were such and expert scraper why did you hire me to teach (what I believe 3 -
    1 week classes) scraping for your Apprentices and Journeymen where you (Bremerton Naval Shipyard) worked back in the 1980's? Remember you attended them. This was long before you started teaching classes based on mine, IMHO.
    Exodus 34:14 (Good News Translation)
    Last edited by Forrest Addy; 09-25-2019 at 04:37 AM.

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  18. #32
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    Took me a while to find that one.
    exodus.jpg

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  20. #33
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    Thanks for posting Forrest. Charles

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  22. #34
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    I had to squint to read the small print - it was worth it !

    Good to see you posting Forrest.

    All the best
    Mat
    I have only used Micrometer Blue by Stuarts - Ive not found a situation where it hasn't worked, I dont look like a smurf after soap and water and none of my tools or scraped surfaces have to be cleaned off and dried after use. I have applied it with a cheep rubber coated rollers - which fall apart after a few months of heavy use. Ive used rolled up cloths wrapped in electrical tape - which work really well even after you drop them on the floor and pick up grit .. just wipe them off - mostly lately Ive been using my finger tip on spindle journals. So my answer boils down to use what you have / can lay your hands on. Its more important to be able to read the print than apply the film to the exact millionth.
    I should add, Im not a pro' and thus please apply salt at a pinch.

  23. #35
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    For a while Canode made a batch of ink that had small particles of clay that made it feel like something was in it. I had found this when I had just sold a large order to BIAX Germany. What we did was to tell the customers to use the hard rollers to smash it when we rolled it out. The biggest secret is to wipe your hand over it and feel for the small spec's and roll it until it is gone. This next trip to Austria, we will be testing 5 brand name blues and the best way to apply it. Dykem, Permatex, Canode, Charbonnel and Diamant (German). I will let all know. Rich


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