Rescraping Aciera F3 milling machine - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Default A quik note to the readers

    First off I want to help the OP but This thread is being written by a first timer. He is in a hurry to show his work, which I commend him for his efforts.

    Please don't confuse this with a professionals work. Practical Machinist is a learning forum where people come to ask questions and get advice from professionals or semi professionals. If your also new to rebuilding and scraping be assured this thread is not something you should try to copy the techniques. Ballen has volunteered to help the OP but he has declined and says he thinks he can do it by himself, I see this with proud rookies who seem to think they can reinvent the wheel. It will be a learning curve for him and the readers.

    It's my opinion Ballen is a good teacher and scrape very good. He approaches rebuilding with an open mind and accepts advise willingly.

    As I say ...This thread is a good example of a bad example. So take what your seeing and reading with a grain of salt or don't assume this is the proper methods, shown from the OP.

    I am willing to help the OP and I will be making some comments to him and I hope he listens, but if he doesn't, I want the readers / members to get some good advice not only by myself, but from experienced people who help here all the time too. One doesn't learn if he doesn't make a few mistakes along the way, so expect a few mistakes as Machine Rebuilding is a trade that one needs to do a few times or have learned from a more experienced tutor before he/she starts to teach. Much like You Tube, Many on there are first timers trying to show there projects, but experienced people know better and we agonize when we see bad advice presented..

    The OP needs to be a bit more patience when scraping his master straight edge. A straight edge- the outside edges are rolled and not hitting. The edge on a straight edge is so important to have a sharp edge because if it is low the way that is being scraped will have a high edge that will change to original geometry. Making more work down the line when you match fit it to the opposite way, those high edges will hit first and you will scrape that edge first and again change the geometry.

    The back of knee should be scraped with a surface plate or on a surface plate. That way the ways will be co-planar. The blade he shows a close up, He needs to lap the edges finer as you can see the scratches on the 2 sides and scrapes on a blade with transfer scratches to the part your scraping and you will get lousy bluing transfer. If he hand scrapes I think he will see better results as the using a home made saw scraper.

    Keep it coming and the members will help you and the readers looking for advice figure this out.

    Pic's are of scraped straight edges, a test bar and you can see how we work on getting the edges the same all the way out. One photo shows a low edge but not to bad, the blade edge shines like a mirror. That is a 1/2 moon blade with only one edge. The only one I have now. I will try to take a better photo with a lapped edge.

    20181114_161121.jpg20160826_114423.jpg20180510_122205.jpgimg_4356.jpg2013-02-26_15-39-17_694.jpg
    Last edited by Richard King; 09-10-2019 at 12:29 PM.

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    Thanks Richard for the long comment. Of course i am not here to show people how itīs done. As i stated, i am very new to scraping and see this project and my posts about it as a learning experience. I do a lot of learning by doing and getting critique from highly experienced guys like you is extremely helpful. I am very aware that i donīt "know it better" but i have to take some shortcuts because i donīt have the money (after buying a milling machine ). A proper straight edge and a biax would probably cost me as much as the milling machine. As for the edge of the straight edge not hitting: I was very much aware of this problem and contributed it to my poor (but getting better) power scraping skills. It is better after scraping the straight edge again after it moved but still not perfect. However the dovetails on the milling machine are relieved quite a bit so in this case i thought it should still work. I will pay more attention to this and the scraper blade (i was not aware that the edge quality is that important).

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  4. #23
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    Richard, thank you for coming back with helpful advice for feynman.

    Feynman, please listen to advice but don't let naysayers stop you from trying.

    We all start somewhere. I respect feynman's attitude toward learning. Yes, learning on your own takes longer, you will make mistakes, and perhaps might never learn a few tricks and methods of a pro.

    However, I will bet that in the long run, feynman learns more than if a pro holds his hand. It rubs me wrong when I see folks say "I was taught to do it this way". If that's all you know you are limited. Self learning and mistakes lead to deeper understanding. Need to strike a balance.

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by strokersix View Post
    Richard, thank you for coming back with helpful advice for feynman.

    Feynman, please listen to advice but don't let naysayers stop you from trying.

    We all start somewhere. I respect feynman's attitude toward learning. Yes, learning on your own takes longer, you will make mistakes, and perhaps might never learn a few tricks and methods of a pro.

    However, I will bet that in the long run, feynman learns more than if a pro holds his hand. It rubs me wrong when I see folks say "I was taught to do it this way". If that's all you know you are limited. Self learning and mistakes lead to deeper understanding. Need to strike a balance.
    That is what's great about PM, we have several people who can help. You know I was in Feynman spot when I was an apprentice, but I had several Journeyman showing me how. Like many of the Journeymen on here we all had to start someplace. I would hope if Ballen and he are close to each other, he will reach out as Ballen is a teacher in real life, plus he was a great student. Plus he has all the tools he would need and as many have found it is a lot easier to learn with a tutor then experimenting on your own. If not we will muddle thru. If you look at the sticky's above you will see how WE tutored him on PM and he scraped the majority of his Studer Grinder on his own.

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    Hi, so progress is being made... The Z-Ways are finally done, just short of me going insane from all the vertical dovetail scraping.
    I am now in the process of fitting the gib. There was even more wear than expected, the gib surface looked like a railroad track with the edges being so high. After scraping it flat again i went about testing for the shimsize i would have to put in there.
    The feeler gauge fit reasonably well with 0.5mm .
    img_20190911_192632.jpg
    The question now is how do i shim this ? I have previously thought of using brass shim stock and gluing it on because i heard it scrapes well. I would have then scraped it flat after glueing. What about just shimming it ? like so:
    img_20190911_194443.jpg
    Is there a downside of not glueing it down (except it looking ugly as hell)?
    Ps: i found out about the scratch in my scraper blade Richard mentioned...
    img_20190911_102438.jpg
    The chinese carbide burrs i used for the edge were in fact two pieces brazed together . So now i have a very fine line of braze perpendicular to my edge

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    We would lay the column and scrape it horizontally. The scraping on the column looks terrible. Hard to believe you scraped the flats and dovetail in 2 days with the straight-edge you showed us. Your machine maybe getting worse then better. I am getting the feeling your fooling around here. Reminds me of another who used to make up names. How about giving Ballen your phone number as I know he lives in German. So he can verify your living German and not pulling our leg.

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    Richard, i have much respect for your knowledge and your willingness to share it (at least some of it for free). But your attitute towards me is somewhat annoying... I never expressed any desire to show off, fool people or spread misinformation. Or at least it was not my intention. I came here to learn and maybe share my experiences. If one is not allowed to post on this forum unless you spent a fortune for one of your scraping classes then so be it. However i had the feeling that other members here do not think so. And even if they just read this for a chuckle and shake their head at me thatīs perfectly fine with me. But saying i spent the time writing these posts to fool people (what should that even mean?and why would i even want to do so?) feels insulting to me. If you donīt want rookies on the forum looking for advice then go ahead and delete the post. So far thanks to the people who where helpful (thanks againg Demon), encouraging or just interested .

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    Richard is only trying to save the world - please cut him some slack.
    Someone, possibly from some secret military black site might see this thread and follow in your footsteps exactly and some very critical (certainly nuclear or antimatter powered) device might be made out of tolerance, possibly a trillionth or so.

    This device would the fail to perform its function of destroying the asteroid.

    You know- the asteroid that starts the next ice age?

    All because you had the balls to use a bandsaw table as a precision square.

    In all seriousness, Richard is very passionate about scraping (not scrapping, two totally different things) it’s how he makes a living.
    He does spend lots of effort on here promoting his classes, most students that have attended say they are excellent. (He certainly does )
    If I had spare cash I’d love to take one.

    His issue with your work is that this is a Professional forum , where someone might seek help fine tuning an expensive machine, or advice on choosing a reference surface for a part they are scraping in, or the best sequence to scrape a whole machine.

    He (not very politely) is trying to make sure that anyone that finds this thread in the future understands that your methods, tools , whatever, may not be ideal to achieve the best result.
    It’s your machine, do what you wish, pick and choose advice freely, but the benefit of a site like this is learning from other people experience, and the best part as mentioned above is its free

    Good luck, I’m watching your progress, I do agree the pics of the Z ways make it look like there is minimal contact and large gouges?? Might be the lighting and angles.





    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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    We have had some people who have way to much time on their hands and get their jollies by making up fake names and coming on here to feel important and pull our legs. For someone in Germany your English is pretty good. My friend Stefan G in Germany writes a few odd sentences or words from time to time. You write more like am American trying to get your jollies fooling people. In all my years on here I have seldom seen someone make a mockery of scraping as you are. Writing as if your an expert and showing a crap show. Not listening for advice, your cute "Biax" scraper as to provoke folks who have one. I am guessing your one of 3 fakers trying to have fun. I hope the others can see how your joking around. Have fun, but I am going to ignore you as I have a few other fakes on ignore.

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    To the OP, there is much to be gained by a project based approach to learning scraping. Start with a few straight edges to learn 40 ppi. Do an angle block to refine 40 ppi and add step scraping and measuring a true (close? how close?) 90deg. Do a pair of parallels. As you can guess, I'm suggesting flat, parallel and square. The basis of machine alignment. Along the way you'll learn the advantage of starting with good stress relieved castings of proper size and section that stay where you machined/ scraped them. How to quickly sharpen carbide cutters. How incredibly useful a Biax can be (and how heavy a 7 is when holding it at odd angles).

    There's no way I'd dream of scraping an Aciera with limited experience. Don't assume you can take a short cut: do the homework exercises first. Take courses. Find a mentor.

    Have fun.

    Lucky7

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    Feynman,

    I would be cautious with your method for measuring twist. Simply using a dial indicator on a base I'm afraid you probably won't be able to discern differences in errors in the two different possible axes, which is largely due to how the dial indicator takes its measurement. Imagine you had two ways that started out seemingly totally coplanar. But you notice the dial indicator starting to trend negative. Is it because the way under the plunger is falling off? Or is it because the way the base is on is causing the base to twist, causing the indicator to twist and read longer (very similar to cosine error issues). Any deflection in the perpendicularity of the dial indicator's plunger to the way being measured will read as an error.

    I'm not sure that means it definitely WON'T work, but it might have you chasing your tail at times at best, or at worst, having out of alignment ways compensating for each other equal and opposite.

    A measurement device similar to the king way with two separate degrees of freedom to monitor OR measurement against a large surface plate would be less prone to confusion, IMO.

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    Hi everyone, i begin to realize that beginners joining the the conversation is somewhat out of place in this forum and i donīt mean that in a bad way. I bought this machine as a continuous experiment, as i have done with my lathe that i have bought 3 years ago. Now i am lauging at myself in hindsight for what i was doing (i have never set foot in a machining workshop before). But now i have at least some confidence in turning and machine handling (again far from serious machining knowledge). So this is the way i view the milling machine/scraping, and i should have made that more clear in the beginning. Thanks for compementing my english Richard . Lucky 7, i have done some scraping before notably scraping flat and parallel, aswell as scraping the crossslide of my lathe (I followed a video of Stefan Gtw as i have allmost the same crossslide). However i have never scraped something to 40 ppi, probably 30 at best. Measuring perpendicularity seemed somewhat trivial to me wehn you have two parallel faces where you can check one against the other. Larry_D, yes i already stated that this measurement is not the pinacle of metrology. However the measurements checked out (at leas to my knowledge ) and i was not inclined to keep measuring until i find a fault .
    As a disclaimer: This is mostly driven by myself beeing impatient, i do this machining/making thing as a hobby to contrast my studies where there is a lot of planning, getting everything right and no shortcuts (there better be none when doing serious engineering). So that is why i just jump into the project, because this is just fun for me. Fooling around as Richard would say. And maybe there is actually some knowledge to be gained

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    O and if this is no proof of me beeing german than i donīt know what else is
    img_20190912_215526.jpg

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    We have German beer here, take a pic of an electrical outlet with a German newspaper next to it



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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    Wow, youre cracking on with things so sorry if this is a bit late. Did you scrape the saddle flats from a surface plate? It looks light enough to use as a master vertically, double checking with a straight edge and a twist gauge, aiming at square to the top spindle housing ways is a solid approach. I dont really see the problem scraping this machine vertically, its a nice height and theres not much of it, scraping out of position is something you have to do occasionally, a buddy once told me about doing some large machine table overhead! lol. If the front clearance surfaces are good btw (square and straight, check them first), could use them as a ballpark reference riding a surface gauge and indicating the vertical flatways for depth. Speaking of clearance, make sure you have some left after youre done.
    Robins just completed a Sawzall scraper. None of his Biax owning followers have been triggered afaik

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