Russian methods/tools.. no grinding!

Hello there,

I risk a post here..

My name is Jan Sverre, from Norway… one of Richard’s students.
We seem to have our share of Soviet machinery up here in Scandinavia (historical reasons..)
I have a Russian (Soviet made) lathe dated 1976, and this got me interested in their machinery in general
Went on the ??? ?????? ????????? ? ??????. ?????????? ???????? ? ?????? ????????? ??????????. forums and from then on got linked to what probably is a pro rebuilding shop
Anyway, this rebuilder has quite a lot of interesting videos on his/their work
Maybe some could be of educational content?

Last they are working on a medium size lathe
About min 40 sec into the video they are installing what looks to be some sort of plastic shims on the saddle ways
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5N2X99QM24
Is this an alternative to Rulon, Turcite etc.?
Also, to make 4 pads.. is this functioning as good as a continuous strip scraped low in the middle?
In another video, I saw they had used a continous strip, and I thought that maybe in a pinch (material shortage) they just used 4 smaller strips.. but I doubt so
Wouldn't you be prone to dirt ingress in the middle areas?
(I am a mere novice, and this guy seems to be a pro, so I will stay very low..)
About 4 min 50 sec into the next video you have the testing and scraping of these “pads”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQTugpkTIcQ

PS! About 2 min 25 sec into the same video you can also see a variant of a Kingway tool
And here is a video devoted entirely to this tool
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5728X4FgAK4
Looks like a nice tool, but don’t know more about this..

In general, over there they seem to have adopted some similar, but also other methods and tools
Interesting to see anyhow.. at least for me, and maybe for some of you if not already familiar with this

Thanks for sharing, I wish the lighting was better though. I agree with your concerns over using multiple vs a single strip of wear liner. While on very large machines you might have no option but use pieces, on smaller ones I would believe it would be better to always use a single piece. The main reason I would be concerned isnt dirt getting caught in the "gap", although that could happen. But what about oil flow? If you have a break it would seem to me that it would prevent proper oil flow from properly distributing. Of course not knowing enough about this particular lathe it might not be an issue. Still it wouldnt seem to me like a very good idea.

I PMed you with a couple of links to some Japanese videos that have been shared before. Let me know if you dont get them or they dont work. I have never sent them by PM before and I am not sure if it will work.

Charles

I also wish the video quality was better, but I think they just shot it as they went along (with a simple phone cam?), ie. not attention to staging a specific session.
Photographer maybe the young apprentice..?
Aha.. I didn't think about the oil flow.. but of course! Will have a closer look at this in the other videos

PS! The noise in the "factory" is also very loud (in some videos at least), so pls. turn down the volume before hitting start..
I really hope they wear ear muffs (though probably not).. but that is a whole other subject

Just got your PM response and you are welcome. Important to also share that you have the right mental attitude about learning a craft.

I didnt want to jump on J's thread with other videos so I sent him a PM with a link to some others. Here is part of his response:

"It is really quite simple.. if one wants to learn, nothing beats the master/apprentice principle
Aided by new technology in form of the Internet sharing videos etc. etc. it makes a powerful mass educator.. BUT it is (as ever) essential to get a "hands on feel" and to practise what you read. Eg. trying to drive a car just from reading a manual.."

This is important as no matter how much we cuss and discuss the subject or pick apart others technique or choice of tools or materials in the end of the day it is our own efforts that we need to judge most harshly. Those can only be done by practice and constantly learning to expound our boundaries. You may not want to be a professional scraper, most of us just want nice machines we cannot afford to buy new. But to be satisfied with mediocrity should never be ones goal. Having an open mind and being willing to try new or different techniques, even if they fail, will still add to the experience. This is true of any skill we choose to try in work or life. The richness in life is not what we achieve but what we strive for.

Thanks for sharing.

Charles

Hi Jan Sverre,
I have been watching your videos on youtube for some time. I believe I have subscribed. You might be a novice, but your work is impressive to me! I just finished rebuilding a surface grinder. I was finding the table rocking at the ends of travel. Even after re-scraping the table and carriage. So I scraped the center of the carriage low, sort of like you video, although only a .001" low. But a different topic for different thread. Same idea taken to a less extreme.

Edit: I am curious if that bearing material is something like Turcite, or just some low friction plastic, of which there is a large variety to choose from? I would post a question on his youtube page if I understood Russian.

The Russian in my mind is another beginner as you can see from his scraping technique and lightweight straight-edge and the way he slides it along the ways. The removal of the center wear strip is a mistake as chips will working there and damage his bed. I saw a machine like that once up in MN when the company took the cheap bid and this self taught idiot put Aluminum Bronze strips on the ends of a Thompson Surface Grinder table leaving the center 30% open. The bronze was 1/8" thick. The machine ran for about 6 months and letting in the coolant and grit into the ways totally ruined the bedways. We ended up having the bed sent out to be planned and then installing Turcite on the whole bed.

Charles asked me to review a video about a white material the guy in Estonia was using. Plus that guy usde brass screws to hold it doown plus epoxy. Here is what I found out looking for it.

It looks OK to me. He recommends Zemax or Turcite to the other guy, he also wrote about UHMW . I never have heard of Zemax or UHMW. Turcite is PTFE and they claim on Amazon the Zemax is is better. Many times i will use the brass screws too so that's not an issue. He needs to relieve the center 40% a few scrapes or say .001".

As far as J's letter to Charles.J doesn't know there a couple of us who are pro's and know what to do. We don't quess. I have used brass screws to hold down Phenolic Grade LInnen. Nylatron and once in a while where the shear strength is a lot. I hate to be crabby sometimes on here, but when I see someone doing something bad or recommending in my professional opinion is hog wash I need to disagree. I teach around the world to machine tool builders. I can recognize a good job to a 1/2 A__ed self taught job.

LOw I was wondering what you discovered on the grinder...hopefully you will tell us sooner ten later :-) Rich

lowCountryCamo said:

Hi Jan Sverre,
I have been watching your videos on youtube for some time. I believe I have subscribed. You might be a novice, but your work is impressive to me! I just finished rebuilding a surface grinder.

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Jan I didnt know that was you, I have seen those also, nice of you to share your experience.

Charles

Hi Jan, how's my old flaker going ? Have you scraped that much you burnt the motor out yet ? On the subject of Russian machines ( not Russian workmen ) I quite liked them. I suppose they're a bit like the AK 47 automatic rifle and the T-34 tank. Not really very refined but they have some good ideas. They're very solid and they work in all sorts of conditions also they can stand abuse and poor handling. The electrics are a bit last century though.

Regards Tyrone.

The Artist said:

Hi Jan, how's my old flaker going ? Have you scraped that much you burnt the motor out yet ? On the subject of Russian machines ( not Russian workmen ) I quite liked them. I suppose they're a bit like the AK 47 automatic rifle and the T-34 tank. Not really very refined but they have some good ideas. They're very solid and they work in all sorts of conditions also they can stand abuse and poor handling. The electrics are a bit last century though.

Regards Tyrone.

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Tyrone, I have a question for you that you may not be able to answer. I am also impressed with the features of the Russian machines, there is a video that I have seen that shows a lot of the innovative ideas that were done prior to CNC. However the few Russian machines I have seen in person, and all the ones I can hear on video are loud as heck when running. What about the machines you have had experience with? Any idea what makes them seem so much louder when running than similar machines?


Charles

Hi Charles, to answer your question I don't think they're much noisier than the machines we're used to the West, if at all. The gears are hardened and ground to the same specs as machines built in the West, probably ground on machines bought in the West. The anti friction bearings are OK but not quite up to our standards. On the machines I've worked on the ease of maintenance/repair was taken very seriously so taking them apart is relatively simple.
They are sometimes crude in that that the non contact surfaces on the ways are just rough planed and faces that don't matter on spur gears are just rough turned for instance but I can see why they would do that. It's not our way but I can see the logic.
I remember working on a big knee less vertical mill and the rectangular table ways were lined with a sort of lead/white metal type anti friction material that I've never seen in the West. It was great to work on, scraping was so easy.
They were also brilliant in the amount of information they provided to the buyer. On this particular machine the handbooks were about 8" high laid down. You could have almost made another machine with the information provided. Every gear and shaft had proper manufacturing drawings with hardening and tempering details, grinding tolerances, the works.
As I've said before the electrical side of the machines was their downfall. There used to be a big company in England that imported large Russian VBM's ( Hartle- Stedall ? ) , they ripped out all the original electrics before they were sold and replaced them with up to date Western electrics.

I'd have a Russian machine of that era any day. What the post millennium machines are like I've no idea.


Regards, Tyrone.

One of my friends here is from Russia and she used to do mechanical drawings for manuals. It was her job and I think she still has a few that she was able to save. If I can find some that are applicable I may try to get them scanned or something so they can be shared. They are quite a large format and very well done.

Thanks for your input, perhaps the noise on the videos is just the poor quality of the camera to record it.

Charles

Sorry for the late feedback.. "family weekend" kept me away..
Well, I am learning and get better, but will still consider myself "in training", ie. not a graduate in any means in this field. However, thanks to Richards teaching we made considerable progress. I found it very nice to have the feedback from a pro while you try to master the techniques needed. If it wasn't for this, it would be hard to get past those sticking points which are "easily" identifed and rectified by this kind of personal tutoring. The 4 corners/pads, relieving the centre portion makes sense and is pretty logical when you think about it.. after it is been taught, but I would never have figured out myself.. as goes with a number of the other points from the course.

Hi Tyrone,

Your BIAX half-moon flaker is doing good. Motor perfoms like a charm. I use it on a VariAC, so I can have some means of speed adjustment. In fact, I was using it the other day while practising on a piece before I muster up the nerve to "attack" the underside of the milling machine table. I am prep'ing a video for the others "at my level" as I think there is ample interest to see this in action

Hi Jan, I'm really pleased the old girl is still going strong. I'd used her for years and never had a minutes trouble but when you sell a used electrical item you never know what's around the corner. My means of adjustment was to press on harder ! Ha ha.

Regards Tyrone.

richard, "his scraping technique" might be due to the fact, that the ways were hardened, at least he said so.

I hate to come off sounding crabby, but I watched the video's again and watching the way they scrape, the way they blue up the ways, the way they handle the SE, the smears in the blue, the way they slide the plate on the mill, the way they blue up the tails stock, the way they epoxy the wear-strip not filling in the old oil grooves, hammering or Peening the copper or what ever it is to hold on the wear strips, the way they milled the hold downs, the PPI and gaps at the end of the ways and center, etc. In general these guys are crude.

As "The Artist" ,(lol...great name, sort of sounds like "Rock Star", cute name) mentions the AK-47 and Russian Tank, sort of reminds me of the West's "War Machines" were crude, but they won the war for the allies. I had a Ukrainian employee who imagrated to the US back when Carter was the prez and he was a hell of a great scraper (a pro, so there are good scrapers in Russia, just not these guys) and machine rebuilder (Have to tell you his story someday). I had him scrape Jig Bores up at Kurt Mfg in NE Mpls. Bill Kuban who was the President after his Dad Kurt passed told me he was the 3 RD best scraper he had ever seen. My Dad, I and then Semyon Morgovsky was his name. He used to get angry when Carter sold wheat to Russia as he said they had lots of land to farm,but no tractors to plow as they made tanks instead. He said someday Russia would not buy the wheat, they would come and take it. dian, The scraping on the tail stock and cross-slide were on soft ways. The pattern on the Mill column was nice, but the way the slid the plate on it was wrong. If I was to grade the complete job or work on the video's I would give them a D. It is nice that Jan and Charles showed us the Russian work, but I would hope everyone would see it as another example of work and not copy it as it is crude as heck.

An excellent film about the production of Russian machine tools. This is 1976.
16K20 is one of the best Russian lathes.

Nickki said:

An excellent film about the production of Russian machine tools. This is 1976.
16K20 is one of the best Russian lathes.

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Interesting. I had quite a bit of dealings with “ Stankoimport “ back in the day.

They were decent machines at a very good price.

Regards Tyrone.