Russian scraper blades?

DennisCA · Nov 28, 2018

As part of my quest to learn some scraping I am looking to build myself a hand scraper, I am copying Stefan Gotteswinters design which I believe is a copy of a sandvik or perhaps it was a Biax. Anyway I was looking to see what a scraper blade costa and I looked at ebay and found someone selling supposedly old russian stock.

I am wondering if anyone else have tried these and know if they are worth pursuing or not? They also sell a scraper but based on what I have read on this forum, a flat and springy scraper is better than one of the design they sell.

Scraper blade:
Carbide Inserts For Scraping 15x3mm (WC6-UF) | eBay

Hand scraper:
Hand metal scraper | eBay

Peter. · Nov 28, 2018

The three blades pictured with the scraper in the second link don't appear to have the high finish of the blade they are selling in the first. I wonder which type you would get if you bought from the first link?

If you're looking to make your own scrapers, these ones I made were very popular:

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...scraper-design-343434/index3.html#post3089226

DennisCA · Nov 28, 2018

Yes something along those lines is what I was looking for. I looked further on this sellers ebay store this morning and it seems entirely dedicated to scraping tools and equipment, of their own brand "Chernega Rose".

I did some of my first scraping last night on a piece of soft steel, I have borrowed two hand scrapers from a friend and I thought maybe it worked better with the cast iron ground one rather than the one he said was for steel which had a positive rake. I also found it very hard to get the marks where I wanted them to go, the tiniest most minute shift in the scraper and it cut on either side instead of the middle. I think I have a lot of practice in front of me.

These are the tools I have borrowed:

I have also ordered a number of 150mm diamond grinding wheels (1k, 1.5k and 3k grits) and plan to build a grinder from a small motor I have, again I am copying Stefan Gotteswinter who so far has been my main source of information on scraping. In addition to the regular searching I am doing on this forum.

And after more research I believe a 25mm or 1" insert is perhaps the best one to start with.

Richard King · Nov 29, 2018

As some of you know Stefan is one of my students of 2 classes as well as he learned some scraping ideas from Nick Mueller. He has had an opportunity to use a BIAX flexible type hand scraper that I recommend. I also tell folks to thin the metal of any of the 3 models of the Sanvik or the German name brand Rennsteig Hartmetall- Flachschaber that a few of the Austrian students bought new. I have photo's of them and will download pictures later. The fellows who bought them, brought them and tested them all grabbed a BIAX model with 20-150 blades or 15 or 20/ 75 interchangeable blade or they can clamp in a carbide 8 sided insert.

You can also buy the American made Anderson which I learned how to scrape with and I now am not a big fan of but they are better then the German brand IMHO. I tell folks the BIAX is the pro model. If you ask Stefan he will tell you he just ordered a new BIAX Power scraper. The blades used in the power scrapers can be used in the Biax hand scraper. I am being encouraged to start making You Tube shows now so I can set the record straight on who's techniques are being used worldwide.
L-R Biax type and homemade like a BIAX without a clamp and other Biax with the end pad. Biax Pro models are in Stock here in the USA too.

Power Scraper Blade Kits & Replacement Carbide Scraper Blades | DAPRA
Power Scrapers: Replacement Inserts & Holders | DAPRA

DennisCA · Nov 29, 2018

Hello Richard, your input is always welcome on this topic! I am for budgetary reasons making my own, I am eyeing one of these contraptions that we have plenty of in Finland, I could pick up a small one for 10 euros. The metal in these is flat and springy carbon steel and I think it might just be the ticket for a good scraper

I like the idea of the 25/25 style inserts so one can have 8 edges. For cast iron scraping anyway.

Richard King · Nov 29, 2018

Sanvik makes the inserts in Poland and there are several other readers on here who live in the USA who can benefit from what I write. I know for a fact Biax is now offering discounts on their products. If you know Stefan ask him to get you a bargain as he has contacts at Biax I introduced him to. If you can figure out a way to get to Austria next October I will be teaching 3 more classes there in 2019. something came up and he didn't make It was rumored that Stefan was going to drive over to Austria 2 weeks ago, but something came up and he didn't make it. Oh and thank you to welcome me to the forum I have been writing in for years.

DennisCA · Nov 29, 2018

Must have been some misunderstanding? I wasn't welcoming you to the forum, only into this particular "conversation" or thread, trying to signal I appreciated your input.

Richard King · Nov 29, 2018

Here is then German made scraper that my students told me it cost around E 50.00 with the carbide blade included. It would work good if the metal handle was milled thinner 0.76mm to thin it to make it more flexible.

DennisCA · Nov 30, 2018

I bought a length of 25 x 4 mm carbon steel, that is a bit thinner than 3/16ths but not by much. I enjoy making my own tools so I will be doing that regardless.

I sent Stefan a mail but I don't know him, I only watch his videos. Maybe he will respond, maybe not. He probably gets a lot of unsolicited mail so I won't blame him if he doesn't.

In other news I found a Biax power scraper currently for 100€. Things to note:

- it's an auction so the price will likely balloon as people go bid crazy near the end

- VAT not included in price

- pneumatic instead of electric.

Huutokaupat.com

I don't think this is for me since well. I don't think I need a power scraper. I think I need to learn the basics and work on hand scraping for a few years before even contemplating a power scraper, I also don't have much spare cash and I need it more for things like christmas presents for my kids.

Just posting since I thought it was an interesting tool. Never seen a pneumatic model before.

MattiJ · Nov 30, 2018

Same VR auction has also bucket load of scrapers.

Brazing your own from scrap carbide inserts or endmills is also easy and cheap way to get started.
You could even use one of the 3mm diameter PCB drill shanks, these are very cheap source of good micrograin carbide.
There is not much left(maybe 1mm) for sharpening but that could be more than you ever need.

Lurk · Nov 30, 2018

I have made my own scrapers from old worn out files - then brazed on carbide tips.
I used the files as most of the shaping work is done - I also figured if I wanted to I could heat treat to give 'spring' = that has not been necessary.

I found a 10" x 1" wide file worked fine - when you removed the remaining teeth you are left with around 1/8" thickness at the thin end. Of course you can thin things down or leave some of the teeth cuts to make it more rigid.

The carbide bits are all from ebay - around £8 for a 4" x 1/2" length thickness you can choose up to 1/2" x 1/2". Its not quite as good a carbide as that used in the sandvic blades - it holds an edge for around 25 to 30 % less time. But given the sandvic tips are getting on for £25 each I cant complain and my sharpening is getting very slick at around 30 seconds from scrape, sharpen back to scrape.

There are a couple of examples of the scrapers in use on my videos - I should stress - I'm not formally trained. Much of what I have learned is from YouTube vids , books and these threads, the latter being very helpful - the rest is from hours making chips and mistakes.

Good luck with your scraping & scraper. Do build yourself a lapping system for the carbide - you will be amazed at how much better it is than the old green stones on bench grinders.
Mat

Youtube -

Richard King · Nov 30, 2018

One can see from all the different types, methods and styles of scrapers, blades, sharpeners, size of person. One can look at it as a golfer. You can see small to large men and women playing competitive golf. They play the game and one week a giant of a man will win and the next a small guy will win. Scraping is similar. One can argue they have the best way, but it is obvious that scraping deeper oil pockets, breaking up the surfaces so the oil can again adhere to the metal to make a slippery surface. One can scrape with a file, a carbide blade, a HSS blade, buy commercially made scrapers designed by someone who probably used a file at one time and had a lightbulb of an idea to improve the quality and quantity of the work. One can learn from a book, learn from a master. If your happy with the results and the time it takes, so be it.

DennisCA · Dec 1, 2018

I kept on scraping a little last night before continuing on my main project (FP2 cleanup and restoration) on this test piece of steel, it is really hard to use the scraper with the grind for steel, I found the cast iron one easier even on steel.

But both are very difficult to "aim", I am wondering if the radius on the scraper should be smaller to make it easier to hit where you want. I have not a radius gague but I will make one to test these tools. Just seems too easy to hit on the sides and gouge or scratch the piece. Or maybe I underestimated the amount of muscle control / memory involved in scraping, even roughing.

P.S.

I went out in the shop and drew some radiuses, 20, 40, 60, 100, 120 mm. The radius on the scraper seems to match the 120mm one best but it might be larger, it's hard to tell. In my searches of this forum I see 60mm mentioned by Mr. King as a good beginners radius anmd I am inclined to agree with this based on my experience with this one, so very very easy to tip it.

Richard King · Dec 1, 2018

Those air power scraper motors are finicky at best. They are not VS but the head is the same. I seldom see them and when I do they lay in the drawer as no one likes them.
Take a look at this booklet. Biax Scraper Literature - 1991

I Started a new thread on BIAX and other carbide scrapers

Frigzy · Dec 1, 2018

Getting back to Russian blades, they should work just fine. I've never used ones, but I've seen a bunch of youtube videos (all in Russian) with people using those. I got a subjective impression that VK6 is superior to Sandvik blades.
Here is a couple of videos (try automated sub-titles):

Шаберная пластина ВК6ОМ - YouTube (scraper blade VK6)
Испытание шаберной пластины ВК6ОМ с разными заточками - YouTube (VK6 scraper blade test with different sharpening technics)

Given the price, I will probably order a few.

WC6-UF is someone's improvised translation. Original name of the blade is VK6OM (ВК6ОМ in Russian alphabet). This literally stands for "Tungsten Carbide 6 Ultra Fine". Ultra Fine refers to grain size. It's believed that carbide for scraping blades should be made out of much finer powder comparing to regular tool-grade carbide.

Peter. · Dec 1, 2018

Is he using the same blades as in the link? He sure as hell seems to be shifting some metal with little effort in the second vid.

Frigzy · Dec 1, 2018

Peter. said:
Is he using the same blades as in the link? He sure as hell seems to be shifting some metal with little effort in the second vid.

Yes - exact same blade

ballen · Dec 1, 2018

Interesting way to compute the depth of his scraping marks. I think he's weighing the metal removed, comparing it to the surface area and density of steel, and computing the depth of the scrape marks.

jz79 · Dec 1, 2018

large radius on the blade helps avoiding digging in, I find it good for roughing, covering a lot of ground with little risk of making valleys, when things start to get flat, switch to smaller radius to hit the high spots, here is a pic of 2 sandvik blades, the one on the right is stock grind, left one has a smaller radius on the corner, it will skate when you touch work with that corner

ballen, regarding the calculation, he was simply weighing the material removed with each type of sharpening, rough diamond wheel - slowest, 1200 grit medium, factory mirror polish - fastest, he deemed the "polish" unnecessary, since the 1200 grit performed almost the same, but if you divide the amount by time yourself, you'll see 0,34gr/min for coarse diamond, 0,44gr/min for 1200 and 0,48gr/mon for the polished factory grind, I think there was a thread on Russian forums discussing the need to get the mirror polish, and he decided to run a comparison test, without drawing conclusions how relevant the results are for real world applications, the coarse grind dulled noticeably quicker though

Lurk · Dec 1, 2018

jz79 - thats interesting about the course grind dulling quicker - I may revisit my carbide grinding. I found a 1200# grind not to 'bite' into the cast iron as well as the #600 grit grind. Which when I am scraping with the curl style (moore ... ish) is critical. I may give the 1200~ another day and see what I find. The 3000# lapped faces leave a hugely better scraped finish than I could achieve with a DMT fine lapped finish (which I think is #600).

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