Scraping Advise

morestainless · Jun 19, 2018

Looking for some suggestions on how to eventually attack these ways. It's a Cincinnati #2 Tool Cutter/Grinder (24" ways) that someone took a hand grinder to. Regrind + turcite on saddle? Scrape what is left flat?

Mark Rand · Jun 19, 2018

Don't worry about the grooves. Scrape the rest of the surface (and the mating surface, obviously) flat and it'll work.

Richard King · Jun 19, 2018

I have rebuilt a few of those machines and because they grind dry a lot the grit flies everywhere and it not only gets stick slip the ways get high in the middle.

Do you know anyone who scrapes? You will need a camelback straightedge to check and lower the middles before matching it as Mark explained. There are a few members in Washington and up in BC who scrape. Where exactly are you? Maybe we can get someone to come and help you.

morestainless · Jun 19, 2018

Richard King said:
I have rebuilt a few of those machines and because they grind dry a lot the grit flies everywhere and it not only gets stick slip the ways get high in the middle.

Do you know anyone who scrapes? You will need a camelback straightedge to check and lower the middles before matching it as Mark explained. There are a few members in Washington and up in BC who scrape. Where exactly are you? Maybe we can get someone to come and help you.

Thank-you. I just ordered my 36" angle camelback from you yesterday, I have Starrett 98/199 levels, my Anderson carbide tube scraper arrived today, and a 36" x 24" AA Starrett surface plate will get here in a little over a week. I am studying Connelly. I certainly won't be starting actually scraping on this machine anytime soon. I have to practice on some turned, iron weight plates, Dura-Bar scrap, and then a Harbor Freight vise first, at least. Until then, I'll just examine/spot it to see how far out it is.

I'm assuming that the bolted on/pinned, long rectangular bars next to the ways are the reference surfaces for the base.

I'm in Spokane.

Fun on the horizon!

Richard King · Jun 19, 2018

How about some more pictures. Where is the Turcite? It sounds as if you have it under control. I shipped the straight edge casting today. You will need to find someone to machine it for you. If you need help with anything..some advice, shoot me and email and we can talk on the phone too. Thanks :-)

Oh you will need to make or buy a diamond lapping machine to sharpen your carbide blades. Rich

morestainless · Jun 20, 2018

Richard King said:
How about some more pictures. Where is the Turcite? It sounds as if you have it under control. I shipped the straight edge casting today. You will need to find someone to machine it for you. If you need help with anything..some advice, shoot me and email and we can talk on the phone too. Thanks :-)

Oh you will need to make or buy a diamond lapping machine to sharpen your carbide blades. Rich

Thank-you. Much appreciated.

morestainless · Jun 20, 2018

Richard King said:
How about some more pictures. Where is the Turcite? It sounds as if you have it under control. I shipped the straight edge casting today. You will need to find someone to machine it for you. If you need help with anything..some advice, shoot me and email and we can talk on the phone too. Thanks :-)

Oh you will need to make or buy a diamond lapping machine to sharpen your carbide blades. Rich

Would there be any advantage over the Accu-Finish machines in adapting a blade holder for use with one of these graver sharpeners? They are direct drive with adjustable speed - 250 to 900 rpm.

Paolo_MD · Jun 20, 2018

By the time you've built a proper trunnion that will allow you to grind the radius of the blade while keeping it at the same inclination, I suspect you'll spend more money than buying a Glendo Series I.
If you want to get your hand dirty, build something yourself from scratch. It could be something as simple as a shaft mounted between pillow block bearings with the hub for the disk at one end and a largish pulley on the other. Attach a small pulley to the motor and connect the two with the proper light/flexible belt. Instead of a proper trunnion, you can build a table with the top inclined ~5°. You wonàt spend more time than trying to adapt one of these graver sharpeners.

Paolo

morestainless · Jun 20, 2018

Paolo_MD said:
By the time you've built a proper trunnion that will allow you to grind the radius of the blade while keeping it at the same inclination, I suspect you'll spend more money than buying a Glendo Series I.
If you want to get your hand dirty, build something yourself from scratch. It could be something as simple as a shaft mounted between pillow block bearings with the hub for the disk at one end and a largish pulley on the other. Attach a small pulley to the motor and connect the two with the proper light/flexible belt. Instead of a proper trunnion, you can build a table with the top inclined ~5°. You wonàt spend more time than trying to adapt one of these graver sharpeners.

Paolo

Well, if I could build a simple table with a 5 deg. inclined top for the dirty hands DIY sharpener easy enough, I could do the same for the graver sharpener and it certainly wouldn't cost $1000 to do. The graver sharpener works on it's side too. The advantage I'm referring to is the speed control - fast for rough cutting - slow for honing.

Additionally, I use a Lindsay AirGraver, so a graver sharpener would solve both sharpening chores.

morestainless · Jun 20, 2018

Now that I think of it, I already have the trunnion - a 5c grinding indexer with a 1" collett, mounted on a Craftsman tilting vise. All I need is to drill a hole in the end of a short 1" diameter rod to mount the scraper blade onto.

pressbrake1 · Jun 20, 2018

Richard King said:
How about some more pictures. Where is the Turcite? It sounds as if you have it under control. I shipped the straight edge casting today. You will need to find someone to machine it for you. If you need help with anything..some advice, shoot me and email and we can talk on the phone too. Thanks :-)

Oh you will need to make or buy a diamond lapping machine to sharpen your carbide blades. Rich

Thats good product back up&#55357;&#56397; Most suppliers are thanks for your money goodbye

RC99 · Jun 20, 2018

You do not need turcite or anything to build up the ways as there is no alignment to build it up to.

You scrape the long section of the saddle, then use it to spot the shorter base. Even the wheel head is aligned with adjustable screws. They would have to be one of the easiest to do for a first project.

I did this when I had only been scraping for a short time (self taught) so please be kind on any errors seen in the pictures.

Richard King · Jun 20, 2018

RC99 said:
You do not need turcite or anything to build up the ways as there is no alignment to build it up to.

You scrape the long section of the saddle, then use it to spot the shorter base. Even the wheel head is aligned with adjustable screws. They would have to be one of the easiest to do for a first project.

I did this when I had only been scraping for a short time (self taught) so please be kind on any errors seen in the pictures.

View attachment 231181

View attachment 231182

Heck it looks super and I love the use of 3 points and your home made King Way. I would have put the 2 under the heavy section and used a cross bridge with a single point under the bridge. But if it worked... good job :-)

morestainless · Jun 20, 2018

RC99 said:
You do not need turcite or anything to build up the ways as there is no alignment to build it up to.

You scrape the long section of the saddle, then use it to spot the shorter base. Even the wheel head is aligned with adjustable screws. They would have to be one of the easiest to do for a first project.

I did this when I had only been scraping for a short time (self taught) so please be kind on any errors seen in the pictures.

View attachment 231181

View attachment 231182

That's great, guys. Thanks.

morestainless · Jun 20, 2018

RC99 said:
You do not need turcite or anything to build up the ways as there is no alignment to build it up to.

You scrape the long section of the saddle, then use it to spot the shorter base. Even the wheel head is aligned with adjustable screws. They would have to be one of the easiest to do for a first project.

I did this when I had only been scraping for a short time (self taught) so please be kind on any errors seen in the pictures.

View attachment 231181

View attachment 231182

You removed the bolted/pinned flats on the sides of the base, next to the ways. What surface did you use to level the base? If I read Connolly correctly, it seems he advocates working from the base upward, i.e., these flats are the reference surfaces for the base (and column casing), level them (via the feet) as best you can checking for being perpendicular to the column casing, recondition them to flat, scrape the ways to the reference surfaces, then deal with the saddle. Am I missing something?

Richard King · Jun 20, 2018

One thing you have to remember Connelly got a few things wrong as he was not a machine rebuilder or a machine builder. In the first few pages he acknowledges several companies for helping him write the book.

The rule about scraping you need to remember is you do work from the bottom up, but you also scrape the long side first if it is stable as it is simple to match fit a long way to a short way vs the other way around.
The same thing goes for Rulon or Turcite you glue it to the short side as 99.9% of the time the short side is covered or not exposed to the air. Another thing is on the long ways especially on a a grinder like that, the extreme ends of the long ways are not worn or so so little worn so You can use those ends as a guide to scrape the original scraping straight down and no need to worry about removing a bar to indicate off of.

Many rookies waste so much time not following the original scraped surfaces that are not worn and start from scratch as the OEM did.

morestainless · Jun 20, 2018

Richard King said:
One thing you have to remember Connelly got a few things wrong as he was not a machine rebuilder or a machine builder. In the first few pages he acknowledges several companies for helping him write the book.

The rule about scraping you need to remember is you do work from the bottom up, but you also scrape the long side first if it is stable as it is simple to match fit a long way to a short way vs the other way around.
The same thing goes for Rulon or Turcite you glue it to the short side as 99.9% of the time the short side is covered or not exposed to the air. Another thing is on the long ways especially on a a grinder like that, the extreme ends of the long ways are not worn or so so little worn so You can use those ends as a guide to scrape the original scraping straight down and no need to worry about removing a bar to indicate off of.

Many rookies waste so much time not following the original scraped surfaces that are not worn and start from scratch as the OEM did.

Makes sense. Thanks.

Aejgx6 · Jun 20, 2018

Check out used Buehler grinder/polishers. I have two now and love them. One has a straight ac motor and one is a dc variable speed drive. They both will hog some material off. I like the built in coolant and it's a cinch to change the laps. Your t&c grinder will do a fine job on sharpening when you put it back together. It will make quick work on gravers too. I modified a er collet to index qc holders and carefully applied some rubber smoo to keep the collet in place. The upside to the Glendo/GRS is they hold value very well. If you don't like it you won't loose to much.

JST · Jun 20, 2018

I use a n ancient Glendo, works very well, and has many uses beside just scrapers.

Paolo_MD · Jun 20, 2018

morestainless said:
Well, if I could build a simple table with a 5 deg. inclined top for the dirty hands DIY sharpener easy enough, I could do the same for the graver sharpener and it certainly wouldn't cost $1000 to do. The graver sharpener works on it's side too. The advantage I'm referring to is the speed control - fast for rough cutting - slow for honing.

Additionally, I use a Lindsay AirGraver, so a graver sharpener would solve both sharpening chores.

I have used a Glendo a few times and never found it too slow for roughing. I find that it spins at a very good speed, providing a good compromise between material removal and keeping the blade fairly cold.
I have a KK Calamar that I use with a few cast iron laps and a couple of lapidary diamond disks. Also with that one I never felt I'd be better off with higher/variable speed.
I use a radius-cutting fixture only when I grind the radius in a virgin blade. After that, I much prefer to sharpen it free-handing, resting on the trunnion table.
One great feature of the Glendo is that the table moves left-right on accurate rails, allowing you to use different portions of the disk, instead of digging-in in a spot. With the KK Calamar is not necessary, thanks to the oscillating spindle (downside of the KK Calamar is that is big as 4-5 Glendo put together).
If you have a specific use for which that graver sharpener is more appropriate than a Glendo, go for it and build/adapt a trunnion.
Another temporary solution that more than one person has taken, is to mount the diamond wheel/lapidary disk in the chuck of the lathe. If you take this route, make sure you're protecting well the ways from the very abrasive grit.

Paolo

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