Scraping my Boyar Shultz SG, need help! Table ways are hardened. - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowCountryCamo View Post
    Here are some pics. I will try to take some closer up. I am not sure they are glued but I cannot see any other way to attach. I only see a single hole in the center. Attachment 116722
    Mine's the same way. I see a small hole on the ends, maybe a locating pin in there. Looks chemically adhered in some fashion to me. Shellac? Mine's pretty old, I don't think epoxy or loctite were around back then.

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    Richard, thanks for the follow-up. I had felt resistant to just grinding the table in situ in it's current orientation, since I haven't really settled what level is supposed to be, and wanted to not have to grind it twice, removing a bunch of stock to change the level both times. Scraping until the feeling changes sounds like a good measure, and probably the method I will use.

    Cash: following up from camo's posts, it seems to me also, that the hardened material glued to the bottom of the table seems to be "aftermarket". Mine lacks them, and has oil grooves, indicating to me that what I've got is the intended way surface. I do have hardened wear strips on the saddle, though (both the flat and the vee way). I'm sure the various manufacturers believed that hardened ways were the right thing, but yeah, when trying to restore them, I'm not so sure...

    LockNut: the strips on my saddle are about 1/16", by eye, so by your recollection, it seems they've suffered a fair amount of wear. They look to be held on by the ends and could be pried off. Question is, where do I find replacements? And how would I seat them and ensure they're in alignment?

    I'm thinking I'm going to go with a 90 degree attachment for a dremmel and see what kind of progress I can make.

  3. #23
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    I peeled them off on both sides. The cast iron underneath was only .001 out so scraping was then easy. Now it grinds to .0002 flat across the chuck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by becomingguru View Post
    Richard, thanks for the follow-up. I had felt resistant to just grinding the table in situ in it's current orientation, since I haven't really settled what level is supposed to be, and wanted to not have to grind it twice, removing a bunch of stock to change the level both times. Scraping until the feeling changes sounds like a good measure, and probably the method I will use.

    Cash: following up from camo's posts, it seems to me also, that the hardened material glued to the bottom of the table seems to be "aftermarket". Mine lacks them, and has oil grooves, indicating to me that what I've got is the intended way surface. I do have hardened wear strips on the saddle, though (both the flat and the vee way). I'm sure the various manufacturers believed that hardened ways were the right thing, but yeah, when trying to restore them, I'm not so sure...

    LockNut: the strips on my saddle are about 1/16", by eye, so by your recollection, it seems they've suffered a fair amount of wear. They look to be held on by the ends and could be pried off. Question is, where do I find replacements? And how would I seat them and ensure they're in alignment?

    I'm thinking I'm going to go with a 90 degree attachment for a dremmel and see what kind of progress I can make.

    How old is this machine? I have no idea when they transitioned to those hardened strips. I do know the ways were surface ground after the hardened ways were applied. You could make new ones yourself. When B-S closed, they moved operations to Rockford, IL and parts dept. was in existence for many years. I remember they were .125 thick Blanchard ground when the oil grooves were applied. Hardened, then semi-finish ground, attached to the table and finish ground. Wish I could provide more help. I did a quick Google search and a dozen companies came up that sell part and rebuild services for these grinders but I doubt if these are the kinds of parts that would still be stocked.

    Paul

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    This might be a long shot but there is an address and phone number for Boyar-Schultz in Rockford, IL

    8159642600 Rockford IL Boyar-Schultz 61101 - Sphinxaur

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    Quote Originally Posted by LockNut View Post
    I used to work for Boyar Schultz as a machinist. Those hardened wear strips were indeed meant to be replaced when worn. They were 1/8" thick if I remember correctly. Although, from the factory perspective, we never had to worry about removal. Those oils grooves were done in my VMC, at least for the 3 years I worked there. Before that they were put in on Bridgeports.When I worked there, the factory was in a bit of turmoil and historically, still worked with extremely old technology and methods. Keep in mind, they closed in 1985 because they could not keep up with technology, overseas competition and union gridlock. And please don't chime in about the unions unless you saw the situation there first hand. But yes, those wear strips come with a chisel. Get it started and they will come off by themselves, almost.





    Not to change the subject but there was an interesting mishap when an older gentleman had about 60 of those wear strips on a big Matteson grinder table and forgot to turn on the magnet. Well, most of them disappeared in an instant, taking out the guard on the left end of the table. Some went through the wall into the office area. Some went through a cinder block wall like swords and some went into steel work cabinets. Some were never found. Nobody was hurt, thank God. The operator, who was about 70 at the time was as white as a ghost and had to taken to the hospital. This happened as I ran a VMC right across the aisle from him.

    Paul
    That makes sense about the wear strips and the idea to replace them. I guess unless you know this secret about the machines it would appear for sure like somebody did this as part of a retrofit.

    That guy at 70 only then discovered the auto unload feature? All Mattisons have this built in.

    Good thing nobody was hurt.

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    Default Scraping my Boyar Shultz SG, need help! Table ways are hardened.

    Locknut, thanks for the lookup, but got a "line disconnected" from that number. You say the strips are supposed to have oil grooves, huh? Mine are smooth. Here's guessing they got worn completely down.

    I'm thinking that, even if I made some replacements, I'd still have to scrape them, having no idea what the surface quality of what's below them now. If I was going to go that far, I'd probably be thinking about Cash's suggestion of milling and dropping in durabar, though I'm not sure about fastening methods.

    On the age of the machine, I would guess at least 50 years, looking at it. Not sure where to look up serial numbers, but here are a couple of shots of the plate.

    imageuploadedbytapatalk1452885082.574819.jpg

    imageuploadedbytapatalk1452885129.486546.jpg

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    One thing you may want to consider. I remember Boyar-Schultz had a rebuild department. These could very well have been added later as part of a rebuild. I remember being told that the hardened ways were a relatively new feature/improvement.

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    Seeing that Locknut woked for them, I would think those strips were original or OEM applied. I recall rebuilding a Devlieg Jib Mill that had to have been 40 years old now. The factory had glued on a ground steel wear plate on the column and when we rebuilt it we chiseled it off. Used a thin tipped chisel to break the seal. After we had it ground to clean up we re-installed it.

    I recall we called Devlieg on how to do it. It's hard to believe but i recall doing it as if it was yesterday. Had to have been in the late 70's when we did it. My Dad was still running the company. The factory told us to use Lock-tite Depend Epoxy and we then used flat blocks we C-clamped in on every 6". Depend was a clear one part that we used a putty knife to spread it evenly on the CI column and then sprayed a 2nd part catalist on the long steel strip and quickly applied it. I think its a 1 minute epoxy. My Dad, My Brother and I had to work fast.

    I recall mixing 2 part 3 M epoxy when I was a kid, so epoxy has been around at least 50 years too.

    Boyer Shultz may have experimented with and without oil groves. I can see that happening and I can see what locknut said there was static on the shop floor installing it. I have seen that in other factories where a new engineer is hired and he/she is going to change things. Doesn't listen to the old timers and it's WW3. If it was a union shop, that a whole different story. I recall teaching classes at Gallmeyer & Livingston in Grand Rapids, MI and how they could not compete with OKamoto Grinders. It was a Japanese Grinder who copied their machine. Eventually they went bankrupt and closed. It was a shame and lose to America.
    Rich
    Last edited by Richard King; 01-15-2016 at 04:54 PM.

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    Listen to what I am saying. I peeled the strips, removed the same thickness shim under the rack, scraped it in and now grinds beautiful. You dont need to add or replace anything. I also think it was a rebuild because of the shim under the rack. Worked like a charm.

    Edit: I re-read and realized I never revealed the shim under the rack part earlier. The rack shim was same thickness as the way pads.

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    On very worn ways, we will mill pockets. Install tercite and machine close then scrape in.

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    I know this thread is old, but looking for an opinion on the table ways on my Boyar Schultz.
    are they original, good/bad shape? thanks, Joe
    img_20190314_173921.jpg
    img_20190314_173946.jpg
    img_20190314_173952.jpg

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    They look very good from here...
    Yes an old thread but I am glad you brought it back

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    Thank You, Michiganbuck
    I appreciate the quick response!
    Joe


    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    They look very good from here...
    Yes an old thread but I am glad you brought it back

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    Looks to be no more than a few tenths wear to me.

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    Thank you, ironsmith69
    I bought the surface grinder a couple months ago and started cleaning it up.
    I would assume this machine was lightly used or well maintained?

    Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by ironsmith89 View Post
    Looks to be no more than a few tenths wear to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MGKELLY View Post
    Thank you, ironsmith69
    I bought the surface grinder a couple months ago and started cleaning it up.
    I would assume this machine was lightly used or well maintained?

    Joe
    It looks to me to have quite a bit of use on it, just very well maintained. You would be surprised how long it takes scraped ways to wear out if they're kept well oiled.

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    Those ways look fine to me. I scraped in a Boyar 612 deluxe we have in the shop
    about 20 years ago and it's still pretty good. It did not have hardened way strips.

    One thing to check on them... They usually have Bijur one shot lube systems and there are some felt filters before oil gets to the ways. These can varnish up sarving the ways of lube. A little carburetor cleaner will keep them open.

    Les

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    Thanks Les,

    My particular Boyar Schultz 612 didn't come with a one shot system, just the oil spout.
    I'll post some picks when i get a chance.

    Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by leswatts View Post
    Those ways look fine to me. I scraped in a Boyar 612 deluxe we have in the shop
    about 20 years ago and it's still pretty good. It did not have hardened way strips.

    One thing to check on them... They usually have Bijur one shot lube systems and there are some felt filters before oil gets to the ways. These can varnish up sarving the ways of lube. A little carburetor cleaner will keep them open.

    Les

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    My Boyar-Shultz also had the oil ball port on the table,
    front and center in the t-slots that mount the travel
    limit stops. Theory is, you oil the movable table, and
    it lubricates the long axis ways, then flows down to lube
    the cross axis ways. Then it drips on top of the cabinet
    where a drip tube collects the spent oil and there is a
    catch can in the cabinet. If the inside of your cabinet
    is always wet with oil, you need a little catch can just
    under the drip tube. On the lube pumper models, they have
    an external catch can on the rear, outside of the cabinet.
    Anyhow, the central ball oiler on the table is always right
    in the area of grit contamination. One mod that I did was
    to pull off the 90° ball oiler adapter on the table, and
    drill the lube port to the rear of the machine. I used an
    extended 1/8" drill bit for this. Plug the ball oiler adapter
    port with a freeze plug, welch plug, whatever you call them.
    At the rear where the 1/8" hole pokes through, I tapped it
    for 10-32 thread, and connect it to a 1/8" plastic tubing
    with a 10-32 to 1/8" push lock adapter elbow. I think
    McMaster and Clippard Pneumatics has them. This I feed
    with a Bijur pump oiler I mounted on the outside of the
    cabinet. A side note, for my table I use red ATF for lube
    and on the vertical ways, I use Vactra 2. The ATF really
    makes the table move easier.

    -Doozer


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