Scraping videos

There is no sticky thread on scraping videos, can I suggest this thread be made a sticky and people post scraping videos they have found on the net in here..

Here is a start as I just found this.... "scraping" hardened ways with a grinder

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXLk0mJOwJM

I also found this from the same user https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt9f2QiVbt4

That first video link has been here for more than five minutes now and neither Forrest Addy nor Richard King has thrown a fit over it yet.

You guys are gettin' slow in your old age.

Something tells me we'll be hearing from them soon though.

Cheers,
Dan.

The video where they are handscraping is pretty good. I wish I could find where you buy the flat wooden handle to pocket it in your arm or shoulder. I don't know where these can be found.

Here is a link to the video we made when I scraped our large grinder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY_vrwbCIn8

It would be nice if somebody could subtitle this video.

I am sure with their method and the bending they don't do this for many years!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0gg9z4gG3A

Thanks for sharing, I dont want to create a sticky for that just now but I have been sort of collecting things and may do something similar in the near future. One of our members showed this being done last year on a machine he was repairing and I will likely include his article as he has written descriptions which are better than just a video. But I will certainly think about it, thanks for posting.

Charles

cash said:

It would be nice if somebody could subtitle this video.

I am sure with their method and the bending they don't do this for many years!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0gg9z4gG3A

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Oh I dont think that for a minute, have you seen the age on some of these guys? Ill bet they have....well I wont finish that sentence.

Charles

InterL said:

That first video link has been here for more than five minutes now and neither Forrest Addy nor Richard King has thrown a fit over it yet.

You guys are gettin' slow in your old age.

Something tells me we'll be hearing from them soon though.

Cheers,
Dan.

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Why do you think that Dan? There are many techniques in this world, some work better than others and sometimes the tail wags the dog and you do what you must. I am not sure what part you seem to be concerned about?

Charles

CBlair said:

Why do you think that Dan? There are many techniques in this world, some work better than others and sometimes the tail wags the dog and you do what you must. I am not sure what part you seem to be concerned about?

Charles

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Well, I didn't intend to put words into anybody's mouth and I guess I should have let Forrest and Richard speak for themselves, but in my experience encouraging people to scrape with an angle grinder leads to nothing but major disaster. Trying to control the amount of material removed is near to impossible and one little slip or distraction can result in a major mess. Maybe a very-well experienced hand can get it done with that tool but most others are going to end up with multiple copies of the Grand Canyon carved in their ways. There's just no room for error with a high-speed rotating tool like there is with a Biax or a hand scraper.

I will admit that the guy in the video did show excellent control and it looked like decent work but to my mind that's exactly the wrong tool for the job. There's a reason Biax is still in business after how many decades now. A bladed scraper is the only thing I would want used on my stuff unless it was being done by somebody I really, really trusted.

Cheers,
Dan.

InterL said:

Well, I didn't intend to put words into anybody's mouth and I guess I should have let Forrest and Richard speak for themselves, but in my experience encouraging people to scrape with an angle grinder leads to nothing but major disaster. Trying to control the amount of material removed is near to impossible and one little slip or distraction can result in a major mess. Maybe a very-well experienced hand can get it done with that tool but most others are going to end up with multiple copies of the Grand Canyon carved in their ways. There's just no room for error with a high-speed rotating tool like there is with a Biax or a hand scraper.

There's a reason Biax is still in business after how many decades now. A bladed scraper is the only thing I would want used on my stuff unless it was being done by somebody I really, really trusted.

Cheers,
Dan.

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Can you show me images of hand scraped hardened ways... I know of one person that did it..

Just for the fun of it I went out and had a play with the dremel, which is a cheap nasty hand die grinder.. With a small block of mild steel, something really ordinary to scrape as it just makes sharp splinters and a diamond wheel on the dremel, I achieved this in about fifteen minutes with no experience in using a rotary tool for scraping..

Measuring the depth of the grind marks they are no deeper then 0.0005" which is a bit shallow for machine tool scraping...

It is slower then a Biax for roughing out, but as I said, you cannot ordinarily scrape hardened ways easily..

Dan I agree with you that using this method is hard to control and the grinder can easily get away with you. But as RC mentions there is no other way short of a grinder to effectively work on hardened ways. I suppose if more people needed to do it someone would come up with a tool that would do the job with more control. But sometimes when regrinding a machine with hardened ways is not possible, the hand tool is all you have to work with.

I wouldnt recommend this for someone who is trying their first machine, as the most important thing with this is to be able to measure and control what you are doing so you dont take off too much.

No worries Dan, glad to know you are watching but I wouldnt be too critical of others work. I have seen some videos from Russia of guys using home made tools that look like cavemen made them. But in the end if the result works?

Charles

cash said:

It would be nice if somebody could subtitle this video.

I am sure with their method and the bending they don't do this for many years!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0gg9z4gG3A

Click to expand...

Here you go Cash, here is a Japanese video with subtitles for you..... a bit light on content but at least it shows how much faith the Japanese put on hand work.

http://youtu.be/o9dZOo_ppy8?list=PL235092AC2224359D

Charles

Hey guys, I'm not trying to start an argument. It's just my opinion that there's a defined best practice for doing some things. If an angle grinder was the tool to use for scraping then everybody would using it. That's not the practice I see.

Same applies to hardened ways as far as I'm concerned. That's a job for a grinder that you don't hold in your hand. You spent how much money on that lovely machine with the hardened and ground ways an now you're gonna use a rotary power tool on it?

That is, of course, just my opinion. I understand others may differ. For me, though, when the stuff needs work it's getting done the way same way the manufacturer did it - by hand, Biax, or grinder - even if it means loading it up and sending it out on the truck.

Cheers,
Dan.

Interl

I am a pro and I have ground hard ways with angle grinders and a belt sanders because it was impossible to truck the machines out to be re-ground like they did when new. One machine was buried in the center of a gear company and it would have taken days to get it out and back in. The other weighted several tons and the customer wanted an alternative to sending it
out. If you have never tried it don't knock it. There was a post about 6 months ago where we discussed this before. Rich

PS: I think everyone knows I have a DVD. Dennis Danich has one as another student sells one on bay about scraping a Bridgeport. I also believe BIAX will be adding some You Tube info we produce next April when I will be visiting Germany.

Richard King said:

I am a pro and I have ground hard ways with angle grinders and a belt sanders because it was impossible to truck the machines out to be re-ground like they did when new..

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Yes Richard, I know you're a pro at it - which really makes my point.

Do you use a angle grinder as your standard operating procedure? Of course you don't. Why not? Because you're a pro. You use it only when absolutely necessary. You don't bring an angle grinder to your classes now do you? This is a last resort method, not something that people should even think about messing with unless there's just no other way to get it done.

Your own words point this up. You used a hand grinder on those jobs because the customer didn't want to pay to have the equipment shipped out and reground the right way. They traded correct for cheap and convenient and hoped it would be good enough. (And I fully admit that with you doing the work it probably was good enough. I'm not so certain I could say that about too many others though.)

You guys are arguing just to argue. There's a difference between a way it can be done and the way it should be done. Planning for proper long-term maintenance is part of running a business. If you're going to make a living with machines that need reconditioning down the road then you better put away enough cash to have them properly taken care when the time comes even if it means cutting a monster check to the riggers. I know how it feels to sign those checks and I take the pain gladly knowing that I'm properly caring for the business I've work a lifetime to build.

As I said, others may have a different opinion. That's fine with me. I respect that. However, I'm still going to continue having my machines sent out for work the way we always have no matter how big they are or how much other sh*t is sittin' in the way. If others want to do it differently and think it's good enough that's fine by me too. Our way ain't broke and I ain't gonna try fixing it with an angle grinder.

Cheers,
Dan.

Well Dan as much as you have a right to your opinion so do others. I think we are all on the same page, even if we see it from a different point of veiw.

Charles

I did a 1000 Ton extruder press down in Virgnia several years ago. A rebuilder in Christiansburg VA asked me to come and help them fix a machine another rebuilder had screwed up. It was a horizontal press and had 4 - 30" shafts that held it together, the ways that the ram ran on were 8' long and reminded me of a Leblond Lathe bed bt /^ long side and short side. one way on each side about 6' between them. We checked the parallelism of the 2 and they were out 5/16". The other rebuilder who had chained a portable mill to the above way 4 post shaft and milled the way. Totally screwed it up. We did the job over Thanksgiving holiday and we worked 15 hour days using 6" angle grinders and belt sanders to get it close before we BIAX scraped them to finish. We burnt out 2 angle grinders.

I have rebuilt a 60" Blanchard Grinder for Checker Machine in MPLS and we used a angle grinder before going to the BIAX, In Taiwan, Paragon Machine that builds new Centerless and Cylinder grinders.There machine builders grind the new machines with hand grinders before scraping them. When a part is out more then .010" or there is a deep score anyone who can scrape can grind a part closer before scraping. Clean up is critical so you don't scratch your master SE while bluing. I'm not arguing with you as there are several people here who would like to know an alternative method. It happens more then you think. Rich

Edited: Found this thread. Look at post 32.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...trouble-trak-bed-mill-ways-290265/index2.html

InterL said:

Yes Richard, I know you're a pro at it - which really makes my point.

Do you use a angle grinder as your standard operating procedure? Of course you don't. Why not? Because you're a pro. You use it only when absolutely necessary.

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I think you are kind of arguing with your self. No one said it was the prefered method. No one said they liked it. Its just some thing you have to do - some times.

I've done my share of tickling up hardened ways with a grinder. For the only reason the hardened ways are too hard for carbide to scrap. Did I enjoy it? No. Is it work I'd pursue? - No. I'd much rather scratch my balls while watching a slideway grinder, hopefully watching more sparks on the high spots, and less sparks on the low spots.

I'm not sure of why your extreme opossition to it. A truly hard way, laughs at Carbide. Its like ice skating on glass.

Same metrology is used, precision masters, granite plates, transfer blue. If that show's the high spots / error. What is the major difference, if you pick them off with a Biax, or a Grinder? Only difference being the grinder will actually take some meat off, where a carbide scraper is only going to go blunt.

The best I could tell, your opposition to it was for the un-trained, your going to gash the way. Big Deal. Let me tell you this. For the untrained, a bloke with a Biax will dig a hole with a Biax, that you could plant a fence post in. I'm thinking in cast iron. Whats the difference, the art is knowing where to take meat off. Surely the best tool for the job wins? Especially if only one of them moves metal from a hardened way.

Biax sell a abrasive stone holder for this purpose,

Regards Phil.

InterL said:

You guys are arguing just to argue. There's a difference between a way it can be done and the way it should be done. Planning for proper long-term maintenance is part of running a business. If you're going to make a living with machines that need reconditioning down the road then you better put away enough cash to have them properly taken care when the time comes even if it means cutting a monster check to the riggers. I know how it feels to sign those checks and I take the pain gladly knowing that I'm properly caring for the business I've work a lifetime to build.

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It just occurred to me, your speil might be better over in the "Shop Management and Owner Issues" part of the forum.

So you have a hardened way machine go down on a Friday afternoon. Or Thanksgiving weekend, or Christmas. You cant find a slide grinder worth Shit. What you're preposing takes 3 months worth of planning. Would you turn down Rich K at yort door step with a 4" grinder under his arm?????

I really don't understand why people are getting their panties all wrapped around the spindle over this. I'm just giving an opinion just like everybody else. It's not like I'm proposing an international standard for machine reconditioning or somethin'. Lighten up fer God's sake.

In any case, it seems that I've not properly expressed myself here for whatever reason. I'm clearly not putting my point across in the proper language. You guys are taking things far too seriously and reading way too much into it and misinterpreting what I'm trying to say. Sorry about that.

To fix this I'm going to use Richard's words instead as he seems to have summed up my feelings exactly in a post just six months ago HERE:

As far as scraping a hard bed, I would never do that as the carbide will skate on it. Get chicken scratches, waste a lot of time and money plus when you are done it would look like hell. . . I have also used a small angle grinder /sander to straighten beds on CNC lathes in the field when in emergencies. As a rule of thumb your best to get them ground once at a Grind shop.

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That pretty much duplicates my opinion on the subject. You haul out the angle grinder as a last resort, not a first choice, and only if you really know what you're doing.

See the part in Richard's post about using angle grinders "in emergencies"? Compare that to my statement of using it "only when absolutely necessary". See Richard's "rule of thumb" about how "you're best to get them ground"? Haven't I been saying that grinding is the proper way to go? To me those statements all mean the same thing. You guys think I'm arguing with you when in fact we're just talking past each other.

As far as I can tell there isn't even an argument here. My opinion exactly matches Richards: if it's hardened and you can send it out for grinding then you should do so. An angle grinder ain't the right tool for the job, it's the emergency tool for the job and we shouldn't be encouraging it's use. And yes, if you've got a 1000 ton monster then you do what you have to do. I dare say, however, that very, very few of us are ever going to be facing a challenge that can't be loaded onto a flatbed and hauled off to the grinder.

If it ain't hardened you don't need the angle grinder. If it is hardened you don't want the angle grinder unless you don't have any another choice.

That's all I've ever tried to say. I'm very sorry if that didn't come out clear enough. I wasn't trying to challenge anybody's authority or criticize their work.

And BTW, I got very little ego about stuff that gets posted on the internet. As I've said a couple of times already, y'all are perfectly entitled to haul out your Dewalt's or Milwaukees and have at it on your own equipment if that's what you're inclined to do. If you want to disagree with me I'm fine with it. This place is supposed to be about discussion. I'm always happy to have one.

One thing that came out of all this: I now I know how Obama feels every time he holds a press conference.

Cheers,
Dan.

I do not like to be critical of people that go to the trouble of making videos but this one did not impress me too much...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tkr4UI1fL4

Mistakes I saw was too much blue as it was smearing pretty bad, although if he was roughing it is probably not a big issue..

Rubbing the straight edge by holding the top... If his saddle ways are convex, it will blue up flat rubbing like that, as there was no pivoting to check for flatness...

I could not see much material being removed holding the scraper like that... And then the scraping went all over the place..

I did not watch 16 minutes of it, just skipped through it.. The chap may get good results in the end, but I would do it a bit differently...

And one thing I could not work out was the two inner sections he was scraping... I did not think these were bearing points, but rather clearance sections...