Seeking Straight Edge Selection Advice Plain/Combo with dovetail?
Close
Login to Your Account
Results 1 to 16 of 16
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Bellingham, WA
    Posts
    3,881
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    929
    Likes (Received)
    2004

    Default Seeking Straight Edge Selection Advice Plain/Combo with dovetail?

    I am considering purchase of a camel back straight edge in about 36" length. I am open to buying a rough casting, or a straight edge that may need to be rescraped. I would probably rescrape anything I buy in any event.

    I intend to use this on my lathe and knee mill. the 36" would be a bit short for the mill but I think, with care, I could get by with the 36 there. The part I am wondering about is whether it is better to get a combo straight edge with dovetail on one side or just figure on making or buying a prism or two for the dovetail work and get a plain straight edge. I am wondering if on the mill vertical ways if the combo would be awkward due to its weight and I'll end up with a prism there regardless. Due to the location of the mill it would be inconvenient to lay it down for scraping.

    I have been watching eBay and in addition have found a couple of sources for castings and one nice combo 36" camel back available locally. I just haven't yet pulled the trigger.



    Denis

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    748
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    228
    Likes (Received)
    329

    Default

    Hi Denis,

    I've been lusting after one of these ceramic straight edges.. Item # 102278, Straight Edges ? Grade AA On Busch Precision, Inc.

    As far as camel back goes, personally I think the suburban parallel type I beam type would be more useful in the longer term,

    There's a bit of discussion on straight edge types here.. Which cast iron straight edge type is better?

    Ray

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Bellingham, WA
    Posts
    3,881
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    929
    Likes (Received)
    2004

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post
    Hi Denis,

    I've been lusting after one of these ceramic straight edges.. Item # 102278, Straight Edges ? Grade AA On Busch Precision, Inc.

    As far as camel back goes, personally I think the suburban parallel type I beam type would be more useful in the longer term,

    There's a bit of discussion on straight edge types here.. Which cast iron straight edge type is better?

    Ray
    Thanks for the link, Ray. It was a good discussion. After reading through it, I now understand why I was unsure of the best choice. Still not sure.

    Denis

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Columbia Missouri
    Posts
    789
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    35
    Likes (Received)
    117

    Default

    My thinking is to "pull the trigger" and get the 36 in combo and get it scraped in. You then have the most capability in the one tool you have.

    You can add the others later if you wish, and by that point will know why YOU want them.

    The next step is to start adding different sizes of all the different types. Why? Because tools are what we use and think about. Some just resist temptation better than others...

  5. Likes dgfoster liked this post
  6. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    25,713
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dgfoster View Post
    Thanks for the link, Ray. It was a good discussion. After reading through it, I now understand why I was unsure of the best choice. Still not sure.

    Denis
    AFAIK, you are younger and stronger than I, but even so.... HANDLING any of these has ME convinced I'd sure as s**t drop it at least 'slightly' more than once over the longish course of the exercise.

    Struggling with something long enough - 24" minimum, 36" better - that I could deal with through enough iterations to get the job done before I damaged the straight-edge - and perhaps not-only.

    For now, I'm thinking I'll need a rope trapeze and an overhead push-trolley for the major moves.
    No joke.

    Might want to put the weight of each choice into your decision-making list.

    Bil

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Munich / Germany
    Posts
    2,140
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    342
    Likes (Received)
    1069

    Default

    I am wondering if on the mill vertical ways if the combo would be awkward due to its weight and I'll end up with a prism there regardless. Due to the location of the mill it would be inconvenient to lay it down for scraping.
    My bet is, that you will lay down the mill to scrape that way.
    Your neck and back will tell you what to do after pass #10.

    I'd buy a combined camelback.


    Nick

  8. Likes bebop, Screwmachine, dgfoster, Mark Rand liked this post
  9. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Utah
    Posts
    330
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    382
    Likes (Received)
    123

    Default

    I also would sugest you buy the combined camelback ... a prizum is handy to get under the lip of the dovtail but its far to "flexable" it will bend to match the surface its laying on, the camelback will also but to a lesser degree.Never scrape vertical if you can avoid it, you will tire quickly and the quality of your work will degrade, you'll try to rush through it and be unsatisfied with your results , and it's no fun. :->
    Cheers Don

  10. Likes Richard King, dgfoster, Nick Mueller liked this post
  11. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    downhill from Twain\'s study outside Elmira, NY
    Posts
    11,036
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4126
    Likes (Received)
    3854

    Default

    No one tool will do it all unless most of your machines have slideways under about 30" long. This is because of weight (personal lifting limitations) and the awkwardness or even impossibility of using tools big enough for "larger" ways on small compounds, cross slides, etc.

    If all the ways are smallish, an 18" to 24" long fitters straight edge might come close. This is a parallel beam style, with at least one square edge, and at least one dovetail. It will not be wide enough to do BP size machine columns in one hit, and is too short for the table ways. But it comes close on smaller machines.

    Add a 48" camelback, and then everything on a BP is accessible, at least. It will be a little tough to do the table way dovetails but can be accomplished with care. The thing is, the 18 - 24" fitters SE will be almost ideal for knee and apron ways if it is wide enough.

    Add a 48" prism, or a 30" or longer combination SE with a dovetail edge wide enough to cover any of the ways, and most machines on the order of a BP are accessible and more or less convenient.

    smt

  12. Likes dgfoster liked this post
  13. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    st. louis, mo.
    Posts
    10
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    Does any body know where or how to get your hands on these straight edges Dennis

  14. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Bellingham, WA
    Posts
    3,881
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    929
    Likes (Received)
    2004

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by toolman40 View Post
    Does any body know where or how to get your hands on these straight edges Dennis
    Toolman, that is a very good question. Finding a rough casting or finished 36" camelback with a dovetail edge is not easy. I did follow up on the two leads that were provided in the thread you started. Craig Donges is selling a well-proportioned rough castings for a 36" c-back but it does not have a dovetail edge. The other fellow, Dermer, is selling a Moore-style box straight edge in 21" and 30" rough castings. Dermer also has a 18" rough casting with a dovetail and he is also selling a casting to make a precision scraped right angle
    21" Box straightedge casting $325
    30" Box straightedge casting $425
    18" Camelback casting $100
    10" Precision Angle casting $100

    It seems surprising that there are so few of the camelbacks for sale. I suspect that there are hundreds sitting around unused. But, once someone goes to the trouble of scraping theirs in, they are probably not inclined to sell it for what it would fetch.

    So compromise may be the name of the game. I am trying to keep as many leads open as possible. I am pretty sure that with patience one can be found. The idea of casting some comes to mind. But other folks have done this in the past and they do not seem eager to have another go at it. So that route must be expensive and/or a lot of trouble. I did check with a foundry here in Bellingham just to get a rough idea of costs, but it they only do non-ferrous casting. If I were to do a run, I think it would be a 36" with dovetail.

    Denis

  15. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Australia (Hobart)
    Posts
    3,468
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    543
    Likes (Received)
    2615

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dgfoster View Post
    The idea of casting some comes to mind. But other folks have done this in the past and they do not seem eager to have another go at it. So that route must be expensive and/or a lot of trouble.
    I've had a total of 4 small (575mm) and 4 slightly bigger (640mm) parallel beam castings done from my patterns without dramas at the foundry. I'm thinking of making up a 900mm pattern with a wide/thick enough bottom flange to be machined for dovetail spotting.

    Can't see the point in a camelback one for my use and I wouldn't bother making one. OK, in bigger sizes there might be some weight saving but the flip side is, you can't use it to check levels by putting a sensitive machinist's level on the top. I have an 1800mm camelback straight edge, cost me a slab of beer. Makes a great wall ornament.

    PDW

  16. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Stillwater, Oklahoma
    Posts
    1,239
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    77
    Likes (Received)
    637

    Default

    Denis,

    You might talk to Martin Model & Pattern (Martin Model & Pattern - your online source for fine quality patterns and castings) in Portland. He has castings for a box square/parallel among other things but I don't remember if he has straightedges. If not, you might interest him in making up the patterns. He has a place to do the casting and is a professional patternmaker so would be in a position to generate a pattern quickly and well.

  17. Likes dgfoster liked this post
  18. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    downhill from Twain\'s study outside Elmira, NY
    Posts
    11,036
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4126
    Likes (Received)
    3854

    Default

    The idea of casting some comes to mind. But other folks have done this in the past and they do not seem eager to have another go at it
    My experience over 20 years with 4 foundries is that when I go to place a follow-up order they go bankrupt.

    I have found where my patterns are after the last bankruptcy. But am not really in a position to order a batch at the moment.

    smt

  19. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Bellingham, WA
    Posts
    3,881
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    929
    Likes (Received)
    2004

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stephen thomas View Post
    My experience over 20 years with 4 foundries is that when I go to place a follow-up order they go bankrupt.

    I have found where my patterns are after the last bankruptcy. But am not really in a position to order a batch at the moment.

    smt
    I just got off the phone having had a very pleasant and informative conversation with Gary at Martin Pattern in Portland. Interesting guy who currently teaches industrial arts to adults in Portland and who is interested in promoting metal arts and as an important part of that hand scraping. His primary job is as a professional pattern maker. See his website posted a couple of posts up by TGTool. He sounded interested in getting a run of 36" camelbacks with dovetail going if there is enough solid interest to make it happen.

    I encouraged him to join PM and join in the discussion as I think he has a lot to offer in terms of experience in industrial arts in general, but his background as a life-long professional teacher and his experience as professional metal caster may be helpful as well.

    My apologies to him if I did not get all the above info represented accurately.

    Denis

  20. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    st. louis, mo.
    Posts
    10
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    PDW Could you e-mail me information [email protected] on what you have in straight edges I would appreciate it. Thanks Dennis

  21. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    ch
    Posts
    2,093
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    194
    Likes (Received)
    274

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dgfoster View Post
    Toolman, that is a very good question. Finding a rough casting or finished 36" camelback with a dovetail edge is not easy. I did follow up on the two leads that were provided in the thread you started. Craig Donges is selling a well-proportioned rough castings for a 36" c-back but it does not have a dovetail edge. The other fellow, Dermer, is selling a Moore-style box straight edge in 21" and 30" rough castings. Dermer also has a 18" rough casting with a dovetail and he is also selling a casting to make a precision scraped right angle
    21" Box straightedge casting $325
    30" Box straightedge casting $425
    18" Camelback casting $100
    10" Precision Angle casting $100

    It seems surprising that there are so few of the camelbacks for sale. I suspect that there are hundreds sitting around unused. But, once someone goes to the trouble of scraping theirs in, they are probably not inclined to sell it for what it would fetch.

    So compromise may be the name of the game. I am trying to keep as many leads open as possible. I am pretty sure that with patience one can be found. The idea of casting some comes to mind. But other folks have done this in the past and they do not seem eager to have another go at it. So that route must be expensive and/or a lot of trouble. I did check with a foundry here in Bellingham just to get a rough idea of costs, but it they only do non-ferrous casting. If I were to do a run, I think it would be a 36" with dovetail.

    Denis
    these prices are very expensive. i can get a 750 mm din 0 camelback for $350 (without tax).


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •