South Bend 13 Lathe: Ways Need Work, How Much Will it Cost? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I don't have anything to gain or lose here, but I find it is funny that most everyone is saying "not worth it", except the one guy who could profit from it... hmm..
    If your saying it is me....I give so much away for free it will make your head spin. Take a look at Ballens sticky at the top of the forum columm where I taught Rruce over the net how to fix his Studer. . also read this one...I gave the OP free advice and materials. https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...nd-inspection/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I don't have anything to gain or lose here, but I find it is funny that most everyone is saying "not worth it", except the one guy who could profit from it... hmm..
    To be fair... "work pretty hard to earn the North American average skilled craftsman's living" might be more accurate. Rich may be "comfortable", but big "R" Rich isn't little "r" rich.

    Rich could not do the courses at any much lesser cost, relies as it is on cooperative like-minded and generous partnering for workspace, heat, light, power, and part of the equipment.

    He/they do not own airlines, rental cars/limo's/taxis, toll roads, hotels, motor fuel companies, or any of those other overhead costs that apply to his side AND the attendee's, , either.

    That said. two scraping courses - or just one - or just the books, tools, and CD/DVD spend is all about what the purchaser WANTS.

    For many of his students, I'd guess it is as much about "owning" a new skill, or upgrading a skill to a higher level of competence, than it is about the actual use of it for a specific machine refurb.

    Neither of planers nor bedway grinders are easily portable. Not that they would be cheaper services if they were. Far, far costlier, actually, what with setup and alignment.

    So the bed (and perhaps saddle..) has to get TO them. Then back. Transport cost - nor preparation for it - are not under control of the service provider.

    End of the day ...ANY machine-tool...one has to be able to find, then dedicate, both the time and the money.

    Among many other demands for both in the average life.

    2CW

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    Getting back to the OP's question.

    Swatkins.

    Steve would you estimate the cost of planning a Heavy 10 south bend lathe bed. YouTube I would venture to say If I still had the rebuild shop and orgabized I could scrape the machine in 40 hours. Most pro rebuilders charge 100.00 to 120.00 per hour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    I would venture to say If I still had the rebuild shop and orgabized I could scrape the machine in 40 hours. Most pro rebuilders charge 100.00 to 120.00 per hour.
    I'd say 20 hours, the Master (you..) doing it to a "realistic" goal, not to a level of perfection a SB cannot HOLD for very long, anyway.

    For a hobbyist who blesses a SB with TLC, gives it great cleaning and plenty of lube, it can last more than long enough, even so.

    That's still $2,000, cash not labour-in-kind.

    OP takes a course, does it himself in 100 hours or so, without first planing or grinding, doesn't count his time for the course OR the work?

    There's still about the same spend, "out of pocket". Real money, IOW.

    Even if he drives to/from the course, sleeps cheap, and figures food is the same cost home or away.

    I'm not throwing rocks at "choices". Folks who can, do what they WANT to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    Getting back to the OP's question.

    Swatkins.

    Steve would you estimate the cost of planning a Heavy 10 south bend lathe bed. YouTube I would venture to say If I still had the rebuild shop and orgabized I could scrape the machine in 40 hours. Most pro rebuilders charge 100.00 to 120.00 per hour.
    Ok, I don't know anything about scraping (and I have never claimed to), but 40 hours @100$/hr? (to be clear, I have no idea if that estimate is accurate, I am just talking pricing..) WHY would anyone put that into a $1k-2k SOUTH BEND LATHE??

    capture.jpg

    Like thermite said, if they were doing it for exp, to carry on into a bigger/better project maybe...?

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    Scraping is just another general shop skill. Why would a guy not want to learn as much as he can? If not to rebuild a lathe, then to tune up an angle plate, v-block, base of a vise that someone over torqued, improve a rotary table, etc. The list goes on...

    A useful skill, just like welding, grinding a drill etc.

    Stop learning? Not a chance.

    Lucky7

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    Give a man a fish and he has a meal...

    Teach the man how to fish and he is set for life.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky7 View Post
    Scraping is just another general shop skill. Why would a guy not want to learn as much as he can? If not to rebuild a lathe, then to tune up an angle plate, v-block, base of a vise that someone over torqued, improve a rotary table, etc. The list goes on...

    A useful skill, just like welding, grinding a drill etc.

    Stop learning? Not a chance.

    Lucky7
    Agree every bit of that. Very basic.

    Most do it on a micro-scale need without much thought. Where does de-burr end and scraping begin? Wherever it must to see mating surfaces fit for their purpose. And no more than that.

    Way I was taught to scrape "by a DIFFERENT German" than Herman King met .. would drive Rich right up a wall anyway.

    Gets the job done, though.

    That was all a then-younger Herr Pelz and his mates fitting Mercedes Aero engines had time, resources - even food enough - to care about, dark days of the Kaiser's losing side, War One.

    Germans are serious experienced at losing wars, after all. Been at it since long before the Romans showed up to document that.

    But they bounce right back.

    No surprise they've become serious-good at making do with very little, as well.

    Time and tools included.

    Same again hard-pressed Brits, Czechs, Poles, Aus, Kiwi, and Sewth Efrikaaans.

    Necessity drives creativity fair hard.

    Pesky humans... always finding better ways to cheat...


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    If anyone wants to read info about rebuilding without all the BS, I have a forum on Facebook you can join. Please fill in the 3 questions. King-Way Scraping Consultants is the name. We have appox 300 member so far and about 6 are professionals like me. Have you noticed the folks who are all talk never post photos. I can prove what I say because I have added hundreds of photo's on here. :-) Have a nice day...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20160703_144737-1-.jpg   maschratur-74-.jpg   20170310_101128.jpg   don-bailey-imts.jpg   imagejpeg_0001.jpg  

    Last edited by Richard King; 07-29-2019 at 08:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    MB you have seen The Beast in action (Steve's Rockford Planner) do you think it would be cost effective to plane it? Or just scrap the machine and buy a Chinese machine?
    I'm biased towards old iron, but If you're looking at this purely from a business perspective, I'd say just buy a new lathe,

    BUT

    A lot of my bias comes from the fact that "they don't make them like they used to." IMO even an old South Bend has a level of quality that the new lathes lack. Once CNC machinery came on the scene, the need for manual machines to excel started to slip. That's why you don't find a great many builders making top notch machine tools these days and instead they're coming out oriental mystery factories, because if someone was serious about their manufacturing needs, wouldn't they just buy a CNC lathe? Now the country of origin alone is not what makes a quality machine, but I have found that there is most often a huge disconnect between the companies selling and "supporting" manual machines, and the partner companies on the other side of the globe that are actually building the machines. That coupled with a lack of need or desire to build a machine that will last long and perform better than expected leaves a bad taste in my mouth for modern manual machine tools.

    I believe manual tools still have a viable place in manufacturing, but to be fair the market for good manual machines probably isn't big enough to support their being made closer to the companies that sell and use them (in the States, Europe, or otherwise).

    Another thing to consider is that many machinists or companies who buy their own tools don't care anymore how good the tools are or how long they will last. Business models seem to care more about how much money they can make in the short term, and the long term is just a bonus. The "life" of the machine is only seen as the life of the product it makes and any more is wasteful, or at least for the boss.

    Now me, I'm different. Our company is 160 years old and has been improving each year since we got into it in 1999. We're a dealer for other companies whose products will often last 10-20 years before being "obsolete," but we build our own machines too, some are over 100 years old and we're still supporting them. Building a reputation costs money, but in the end you can't buy it.

    SO, in short, my opinion is probably skewed, but I would keep the following in mind:

    1. Damage and Wear is Repairable
    2. Obsolete-ness is in control of the manufacturer alone
    3. Age has NOTHING to do with a machines worth
    4. You can't always fix a poorly designed machine or mechanism. You can sometimes improve it, but "good bones" can't be added to an inferior product.

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    For me to do it right It would take me a whole day... Price per hour depends on how bad it is, who you are, if you come to help and how much Diet Mountain Dew you bring


    I've spent whole days on your straight edges Richard... Going from rough cast to good looking can take time, especially if there are hidden voids that don't show up until you're nearly finished!

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrenchtech View Post
    I have a South Bend 13 that has a lot of wear on the ways. I can see a groove in the front way near the headstock running lengthwise for about 12 inches. I haven't measured any of the carnage yet, so I am just asking generally how much it costs to have ways resurfaced and scraped.
    I suspect we managed to scare away Wrenchtech.
    There have been many replies, many of them rather extreme in one way or the other. I'd like to put the problem hopefully in the right perspective.

    First, when they were made, South Bend lathes were at most fairly well designed "prosumer" lathes. A lot of clever shortcuts in the design, at least on my opinion. The good news is that they aren't rare. The bad news is that many of them show significant wear and neglect.

    One important thing to do before starting any reconditioning project is to do an overall evaluation: if the lathe had serious wear in the bed, it is more likely that the headstock bearings aren't in much better conditions, perhaps egg-shaped with the tip pointing at 2 o'clock.
    Many of the South Bend lathes had cast iron spindle bearings directly bored in the headstock casting: if they are still in good shape, they're probably the best type of plain bearing to have. If not, it is necessary to attempt some rather complicate repair, like line-boring and sleeve them with bronze or cast-iron inserts.
    Other types of plain headstock bearings will require slightly less work for replacement.
    Bushings, leadscrews, nuts, etc. likely have enough wear to beg for replacement as well.
    I don't know if Wrenchtech has or has access to a fully equipped machine shop where he can build/adapt most of these parts and has the knowledge/skills of doing the job. I don't also know if he or she is interested in using a lathe or spending a significant amount of time rebuilding one.

    Despite I'm addicted to scraping and rebuilding machinery, unless this specific machine has significant sentimental value or everything but the ways is (almost) perfect, I think it is wiser to either attempting to use it as it is, learning how to compensate for the shortcomings, whenever possible, while searching for a lathe in better conditions.

    By no means I suggest to scrap this machine. But, generally, a rehabilitation job is better tackled when you already have a fully functioning workshop to support you. I guess that Richard's 40 hours estimate refers only to machining the bed, building up worn surfaces and scraping for alignment the various components (and I think that is more on the optimistic side; it would take me at least twice as long).

    Bottom line, the answer to the OP question would be at least $5-6000. If matched by re-machining various bushings, replacing leadscrews and nuts by a professional, add at least another $1500-2000. Reworking the spindle bearings? That's another good chunk of money and it would require the use of an horizontal boring machine or custom-building a boring machine riding on the carriage of the freshly-scraped lathe,

    If done in-house, during spare time, over many years, it would be very cheap (unless you give a value to your time and what you could have done otherwise), you would learn a lot and acquire very handy skills (which could help you in improving modern tooling too) and, likely, the incurable bug of rescuing old machinery.

    Paolo

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  17. #33
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    Hobbyists automatically pull apart lathes completely apart. Most production shops evaluate the stock and in my career I would estimate we only replaced spindle bearings 30% of the time. (I took a bearing class at SKF and they said 50% of the time a rookie will ruin new bearing installs, so if it ain't broke don't fix it) And many times we scraped the bed ways from the headstock back, never removing the head stock or if we did we did not scrape the bed ways where the head bolts on. When I owned my planners I would have been embarrassed if it took more then a day or tops 2. But I have tons of experience. I meant 40 hours the to scrape oil pockets in the bed after it was plained and other areas plus only then epoxy Rulon to the bed and scrape it, scrape saddle and cross-slide ways, scrape TS base and align the TS. The customer would pay for all machining and parts. In the last few years of my fulltime rebuilding and now that I do part time rebuilding I help the customer save money by having them help dismantle, do most of the cleaning and most of the assembly. This way I do all the fun stuff and they get a re-scraped machine.

    On another forum one hobbyist student has months into rebuilding his Atlas Lathe and describing on the forum how he did it. Which was great, but he has been working on the lathe for over a year.. I told him I would have been embarrassed if it took me 2 weeks to scrape it and that included scraping the bed..

    My Dad used to say the bearings in the head on American Iron that is would out last the soft bed ways 2 to 1 and I agree. If you think about most lathes turn a taper near the head and the tail-stock is low. We might tighten the thrust bearings a notch or 2. That's it. I will look in the archives and look for a fellow who dropped his lathe bed off at one shop at 3 PM and it was finished the next day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    Bill, Why do you come inside this forum anyway? Just to get attention? Why don't you go pester folks in the other forums. I can see no benefit of what you write in here. I have tried to ignore you and will probably put you on ignore again. I would also suggest others put him on ignore too. In this forum that I helped create I give advise on the trade of machine tool rebuilding unlike you.
    You didn't help create this (sub) forum. It was set up to keep your bullying, self-aggrandizement and shilling posts out of other forums. By & large it has been reasonably successful at that.

    There's an economic case for rebuilding some machines, there's a personal satisfaction case for a hobbyist rebuilding some machines, but Bill is dead right - it isn't cheap.

    The likely cost of getting a bed planed & ground is way in excess of what can be justified for a SB, that's true. That leaves the DIY option.

    Just how many tools and how many hours of practice is it going to take to do one SB bed?

    I'm in the camp of 'live with what you got' until you really need more precision, then re-evaluate.

    PDW

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by swatkins View Post
    For me to do it right It would take me a whole day... Price per hour depends on how bad it is, who you are, if you come to help and how much Diet Mountain Dew you bring


    I've spent whole days on your straight edges Richard... Going from rough cast to good looking can take time, especially if there are hidden voids that don't show up until you're nearly finished!
    Yep, with you there - I recently fixed my planer and used it to plane one of my 1m straight edge castings. I think it took me most of a day. Planing isn't fast.

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    I'm in the camp of 'live with what you got' until you really need more precision, then re-evaluate.
    SB's can be good for that. Transport is cheap. They can be put nearly anywhere, weight-wise.

    Even though they command higher prices than justifiable, they are still "relatively" cheap to acquire, and have a very decent supply of parts for anything missing or outright broken.

    Live with it, learn from that, peddle it and go for a better machine, later.

    Not because the "better" machine is of such legendary stature as to better justify the rebuild.

    Because it has less need of a rebuild.

    "Condition, condition, etc.." .. and having had to "run what you got" will be helpful guidance in assessing what you want, next go.
    Last edited by thermite; 07-30-2019 at 09:29 AM.

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    PDW sounds like your confused. Nick Muller had a poll after I suggested making a forum. He and you must have been on the loosing side? Luckily the majority did.

    What Charles wrote after the poll:

    05-25-2014, 07:07 AM
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    Some of you have already posted concerns and questions about content of such a sub forum and I have chosen to send private messages to most of you who have responded. I have layed out my idea of what should be included and will wait to hear some of your responses. If I posted the same thing here it would likely generate so many different ideas that we would likely not get anything done. I would appreciate if each of you I sent a message to would consider what I sent you and respond.

    Richard thank you for the suggestion, it may become a reality and I agree that someplace to share the combined knowledge of yourself and a few others here would be a great asset to the forum. I normally shy away from creating a sub forum as it splits things up a bit but I think this topic is one that should have enough weight and interest to carry itself.

    Charles



    Poll: Machine reconditioning / rebuilding subforum?

    Machine Rebuilding and Scraping Forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    .. took me most of a day. Planing isn't fast.
    You'd rather step-scrape by hand and put up with the noise about how you were doing it all wrong for a month? Or be called-out as an example for several years?

    Didn' think so..

    "Fast" can be highly subjective...


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    I think we got all the use we will get out of this question, thanks to all who took the time to comment.

    Charles

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