Taft-Pierce way upgrade

Working at rebuilding a Taft-Pierce #1 surface grinder.
My machine was built using hardened (steel) flat ways for each side of the cross slide.
The surfaces on mine appear to be in serviceable condition.
Bid a bit of contact blueing and the pattern looks fine to me.

Later versions of this machine used rollers running on flat ways to reduce the friction.
I am considering a change to my setup and i would appreciate what ever feed back members here can provide.

What i propose is to replace the lower slides (shorter than the upper slides) with "Dura-Bar" fitted with a top layer of Turcite.

Here is a shot of the original lower slide or way surface....Surface hardened steel (Rc 60+)
Way is attached using Allen bolts and beds on a factory ground surface.



Here is a shot of the upper way slide. Also surface hardened steel.
Disregard the blue as it has been disturbed by some work after the initial print was taken...



My question is will the Turcite (actually Rulon) be effective in this application. ?
Will the mounting holes cause any difficulty ?
It would be possible to cover the holes by applying the Turcite after mounting the base rail . I would prefer not to do that, but its possible.

Can anyone suggest a pattern for oil grooves if any in new slide surface?..
There is an oil feed (one shot) to the lower way at the slide center where the diagonal groove is located.

Thanks in advance for any wisdom

Cheers Ross

I am a little under the weather. I'll write when I'm feeling better.

OT
Sorry to hear you are under the weather, Richard.
I'm just coming out of a mild case of Coved.
I recommend taking vitamin C and D.
*The grinder...Richard is the man on this so I won't comment.
Buck

Richard, sent you a PM..

Ross, can’t see pics.


Regards,
Stan.

Stan:
Not sure why you can't see the images....
Do you have "View images" enabled in your user profile?

Cheers Ross

Ross, hmm, have no problem seeing your other post’s photos- for example can see the dro for an FP1 that was just posted, but none on the Taft grinder thread. Did some noodling around on PM and cannot find a “view images” setting in my profile.

No big deal, just was curious what you were trying to accomplish.

L7

Stan:
Look at the lower right of this page. There is a list of stuff that is enabled....
Should have Code is"ON"

Did not post those images any different from the DRO stuff i posted yesterday...Curious...
Cheers Ross

Hmm, confirmed, IMG is on.

I had a Monarch VMC with hard ways and Turcite apart not too long ago. The hardened and ground ways were on the bottom, the turcite was glued to the underside of the X and Y axes. The Turcite had oil grooves cut as elongated connected Zs the entire length of the way, with a single oil feed hole in the center.
It appeared that it worked perfectly well until the way wipers wore out. The machine was spec'd at .0002" positioning and .0001 repeatability and had scales, it's no cheap machine. About 20K lbs for an 18 X 30 VMC.
The bars were bolted down with deeply counterbored SHCS, then plastic (Nylon?) plugs were placed in the counterbores to close the holes. The wipers allowed dirt to enter, which then collected in the slight recess of the plugs, and damaged the center of the turcite over it's full length, and damaged the wipers further, allowing more dirt to enter. Both sides of the turcite on either side of the damage still looked perfect, and the machine was holding tolerances just fine.
I think if the plugs had been made perfectly flush the wipers would have lasted longer, and if the wipers had been replaced when needed there would have been no wear or damage noticeable. As it was with the entire center of the turcite gouged away and dirty, the rest of the way still seemed to get adequate oil somehow.
When reassembling, I oiled the ways and placed the table down on the ways and tried pushing it. It floated around on the film of oil like a pat of butter on a hot skillet.

John:
No way wipers here....everything is covered by overhanging casting members.....
Was thinking that the cap screw counter bores would be fine as oil pockets...maybe.....
Likely need to spend some time making sure there were no sharp edges on the upper slide cap screw bores or the oil grooving.....Could easily shred the Turcite if any sharp edges.
Cheers Ross

Some more pictures would help show booth ways (table and saddle both sides on the machine. It must have V ways too. What is your issue? Stiction? or not accurate grinding? Why do you want to replace ??? Plan on doing saddle and table ways? Have you removed the hardened bolt on ways? Do you have a scraped or granite SE to check the hard ways to be sure they are not convex?

I see some issues you should consider - when the machine is at the extreme travel are any of the ways open to the air? That's maybe the reason the factory didn't connect the oil grooves as most factories do. If connected oil grooves come off the opposite way it would lose the pressure and not float of a wedge of oil. Is the lube pump a cyclic or one shot lube? How did you blue up the ways? Looks like you used a Straight-Edge...?

Before I answer a question I would prefer a few more facts...being a detective. I have a DR appointment today...I went to Urgent care on Sunday after I consulted with my good friend Lance B who was a MD before he got smart and became a Vet (Less liability insurance, LOL) And now he is a great machine rebuilder too! 6 time student...He and Adam Booth have some super You Tube shows on rebuilding) I have some diabetic complications and not Covid, thank God.

Rich

The photos provided above show both the lower (1st photo) and upper (2and photo) ways for the table cross movement.
The lube is via one shot pump with feed checks.

The ways shown are at each side of the casting. There is a set on the right and on the left...Both identical to what is shown.No "V" on the right and left pair of ways.
The "Y" slide is controlled for square and position by a set of flat and "V" ways running in the center of the casting. That setup carries balls between the hardened "V" ways and a flat way....Sort of like pall bearing thrust bearing only running flat......
The center "V" ways along with the table "V" ways will be reground (Schaffer Grinding in LA) and new precision balls fitted (Baltec grade 10 of better)

The lower way (short) is always covered i believe, the upper of course is doing the traveling and at times some portion will be uncovered....


The ways were blued using a scraped straight edge (set off calibrated grade A surface plate)
Blueing also tested by printing one slide to the other....done both ways either blue on the lower (short) way..And blueing the long slide and setting on the lower....

All three methods showed similar contact.....Photos are not representative of actual contact. Photos taken after some additional work had been done and the blue disturbed and wiped some.


I was considering Turcite to provide less stiction in moving the slide.....Might not be worth he effort, that is part of the question....

Cheers Ross

I dont really have anything to add other than a comment. Those are the first steel on steel ways I've heard of. I would bet a beer they are of different hardness's and alloys.

I would probably leave them alone and spot lap them, I bet TP did that during the build. Moore used the technique and shows it in their book.

Rich- have you seen hard steel on hard steel ways?


PS- i can see the photos on my PC but not on my cell phone using a browser.

Rich, sorry to hear about the health issues, I hope you are feeling better soon.

Ross, interesting project, are you worried about stick/slip in the cross feed direction? Is this a "new" machine or one that has been in your shop for years and you want to improve it?

Ross --

Take a look here: Welcome to Dunbar Commercial Enterprises

Dunbar Commercial Enterprises makes roller-bearing retrofit kits for surface grinders. No personal experience with the Dunbar rollers, but a former co-worker spoke highly of them.

John

Until I see better photo's I can't help out. We need a drawing or page out of a parts book...I can't see what your saying. If others get it, you help. I'm done, I can't figure it out with those pictures or explanation.

I have some issues with my Diabetes.....my toes are / were blistered.... I have or had an infection, but as of today it looks like my toes won't need to be chopped off.... LOL I feel 100% better after 3 days of antibiotics and NO SUGAR, feet up, new bandages daily, happy pills and antibiotics ...lol I am seeing a specialist as my general family practice DR was clueless. I swear I will never go back to general clinic MD's. Rich

Richard King said:

I have some issues with my Diabetes.....my toes are / were blistered...

Click to expand...

Dear Rich, I have a friend in Italy who is a good and experienced doctor. His 90+ year old mom is diabetic and had infections on her legs that would not heal or respond to antibiotics. He eventually treated them (the open wounds, I am NOT kidding) with sugar, which worked. Please google and you will find quite a bit of information about this as well as some medical studies. Cheers, Bruce

OT

Richard, I won't knock sugar or sugar with iodine but a company called MIMEDX has the latest, best wound healing technology/product at this time called Epifix and Epicord,

It is a band-aid-like piece of the umbilical cord ( dehydrated amniotic tissue), yes doctor applied.
Some wounds that were near down to bone were healed.

Warning not for the people who cant look at a serious wound:
Epifix application - YouTube

Yes, I have a position in the stock of MIMEDX.

The grinder: I see nothing wrong with Taft design, many of them put in years of good service.
I think a plastic way would be OK. Perhaps with more work putting in a dura bar way might be considered. One could mill and grind it to +.001 and finish with scraping.

I'm not a pro-rebuilder but in my mind, way bearing material isn't designed into machines to improve the performance of the motion, it's to control which parts wear and provide a replaceable element. And it's only added to an existing worn surface to build it up without having to machine-in metal inserts. Ways like those pictured would be fantastic to work with because they're easily replaced with zero modification to the machine. Even there, you really never need to add material to the working surface. If needed, you can remove the bars, grind them flat, and use shims between the way and the casting to set the height (that's only assuming that a drop in height isn't acceptable).

If the only problem is stick-slip, then the oil is getting squeezed out. Modern way bearing materials have some inherent lubrication properties, but IMO they're not going to "fix" not having oil where it's needed. I'd add some flaking or grooves to the top surface so there's a place for the oil to stay. But even there, I wouldn't do much more than the OEM did unless it's NEVER worked right. Adding modern bearing material to it could help, but I don't know that it would be worth the added time and expense since the exact same performance can be achieved with metal-on-metal ways with the right bearing point count.

From my experience, machines like surface grinders that had different "levels" of ways like some machines having iron slide ways and others having rolling bearings, CAN perform exactly the same. The difference isn't that flat ways are inferior, it's that they take cheaper materials for the base system and more skilled labor to get them to the higher level of performance, while with bearings there's a bigger investment in materials but any factory worker can bolt it together. It's why roller bearings never totally replaced flat ways. Some companies bottom lines meant they would rather invest in employee skills and time on the job while others would rather invest in product design and streamlined production, and others left the decision to the customer. On the flip side when things wear out, if you can't get new bearing elements you're screwed, but a flat surface can be re-cut to perform exceptionally with the right skills and minimal material investment.

Look what I found. This explains everything. The grinder has 2 flat ways on the saddle with a middle parallel guide way. https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...255453/?highlight=taft+pierce+surface+grinder