Testing Spotting Inks and Ink Rollers for Scraping - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCritchley View Post
    I have noticed the water loss in the canode as well. I was thinking about adding a bit of DI water a few drops at a time to re wet.

    Curious if anyone has done so.
    Canode is not water based. It's water soluble. Adding water to it will thin it, but now it has water in it and you will not be able to leave it on any metal surface or it will cause rust.

    I have some Canode and I had the same experience. It would be better to thin it with oil, but then it will no longer be water washable.

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    I have never used plain water to dilute Canode. I use Glass Cleaner which I have always assumed had some ammonia in it. I also never leave anything wet with it during the night. Like I said I started using it in the early 90's if not the late 80's and it worked for me. Now I use it mixed with Charbonnel water based Prussian color as it darkens Canode. The Brothers over in Austria, who I remind you are pro's. Came up with the Canode Charbonnel mixture. They had purchased a Charbonnel thinner from the art supply place they bought it at and in failed as a bluing diluter. I started using the hard brayer to thin it out as I was successful the foam roller that BIAX sells. Biax also sells a hard roller too. They also sell Diament tube type that was preferred in Germany before I introduced Canode to Scandinavia and Germany. Jan is ordering a large order for his mates over there.
    Last edited by Richard King; 12-18-2019 at 09:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    It looks like Essdee offers a range of widths for their brayers, they can be ordered from the Amazon UK site:

    Amazon.co.uk: essdee brayer
    Thats right, but buy only the black "Deluxe" or "Professional" ones, the roller is maschine ground and the rubber has 60shore.
    From all the rollers we have used over the years, this one works best.

    Franz
    from the Lüftinger Brothers

  4. #24
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    Franz, I never received the class photo's??? I also never took photo's off your small glass jars we mixed the Canode in. Would you please add to this thread about the inks. Plus that brown Charbonnel thinner. What you tried.

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    I have thinned canode with ordinary tap water - just a few drops in the 1.5ox bottle. It caused no issues. The yellow ink had thickened over a couple of years.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    Canode is not water based. It's water soluble. Adding water to it will thin it, but now it has water in it and you will not be able to leave it on any metal surface or it will cause rust.

    I have some Canode and I had the same experience. It would be better to thin it with oil, but then it will no longer be water washable.

    I have been thinning with water, which it seems to have in it to start with. The water dries out so fast that any rust issues have never come up. I was thinking of experimenting with ethylene or propylene glycol (antifreeze) to see if it would remain workable longer.

    you do have to mix it up well, or you get just a touch of the color, and it smears out. it's OK when well mixed. The problem is figuring out how much water to add. probably more than I think.

    I have been known to leave it on a straightedge overnight, and it has caused no problems. I do cover the surface with plastic after each spotting, to keep dust etc off it. Maybe that helps.

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  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    I have never used plain water to dilute Canode. I use Glass Cleaner which I have always assumed had some ammonia in it.
    Not all have Ammonia, no. What I think they DO all have "in common" is Isopropyl Alcohol - then also various sulfones, surfactants, detergents, and such, depending on "brand".

    Isopropyl, bought directly in 5 Gal drums and larger, (as for the offset printing trade, "back in the pre-laser-printer" days), is sold with "some" water in it ELSE very soon attracts its own.

    See also "rubbing alcohol" at any pharmacy or supermarket. 30% water, is it?

    Could be it would be more predictable than glass cleaner and cheaper as well?

    Ethylene Glycol "motor" anti-freeze one does NOT want. Toxic in several nasty ways.

    "PEG" POLYEthylene Glycol - "plumbing anti-freeze", one usta buy at RV outlets to winterize a travel trailer or hunting cabin toilet- trap. Not to be mistaken for cran-apple juice and taken as a beverage, but at least a great deal less harmful.

    Spray and squeeze bottles are refillable/reusable a time or three, sold new, empty as well, so that's not a barrier.

  9. #28
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    I'll be teaching a class in a month down in Florida and will do some experimenting. I ordered a Essdee roller and will do some more testing. I will take my .00005" indicator and some gage blocks and see what sort of thickness we get with various bluing techniques. Just to inform the members. How about the others show it too with their favorite concoctions :-) and make this more interesting.

    Just to be sure everyone knows I always put to mush bluing on in the beginning say if the part is .005" out and as the part gets better I use less ink. Say you can slide in .003" shim stock under the straight edge I rough scrape that I call step scraping and blind scraping and use the yellow or red highlighter before bluing it up. But as I said once It is close say .001" I blue it up with to much bluing just in case I didn't stone off all the burrs. Also to those who are interested I started a private forum on Facebook. under my company name. King-Way Scraping Consultants. We have close to 500 members now. Some pro's and a lot of hobbyists. I have told all of them to join Practical Machinist too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    I'll be teaching a class in a month down in Florida and will do some experimenting. I ordered a Essdee roller and will do some more testing. I will take my .00005" indicator and some gage blocks and see what sort of thickness we get with various bluing techniques. Just to inform the members. How about the others show it too with their favorite concoctions :-) and make this more interesting.
    Seems to me there are two parallel tribes.

    The "followers" of the Old Skew oils and esters based pastes. Dykem, Stuarts, Diament, DIY, etc.

    The New(er) Skewl "acolytes" with the light-volatile marking and spotting media, be that glycerols. alcohols, water based, trace of Ammonia (or maybe not?). Canode and alterations.

    I'd guess the components are actually PUBLISHED in MDS data sheets for Canode and such? Why are we guessing about the chemistry, anyway?

    And is it really a matter of "professional" preferences, and does the media REALLY deliver different, better, or faster results?

    Or simply that those who do it all-day, every-day have a greater appreciation for easy soap and water clean-up instead of stained hands and equipment?

    whilst...

    Those who do it very seldom like a paste that can set back of the drawer for multiple decades, still be useful with nought but a dab of oil to make it ready again those rare times it is even used at all?

    And don't mind going through several pairs of disposable gloves of the sort I keep three different tribes of to-hand, cheap as they all be, Big Box, pharmacy, or online in bulk?

    It ain't "moving machinery" where gloves are a BAD idea, after all.

    I can't see even a long SE as hasn't had a proper meal in ten years getting so all-fired hungry as to suck you under it and grind yerazz into sausage as a large lathe or mill can do!



    "Glove-up". Even double-glove. Stain is no longer a Big Deal.

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    I do most of my scraping projects in the winter in a shop that's well insulated and air tight. Avoiding solvents is, for me, a good thing when possible. I've learned to use Canode and alter my lighting to suit mostly because it's water/windex clean up. I agree, it's not as clearly visible and doesn't leave as nice a print as Dikem. Ease of use wins out tho... I might use brake solvent to clean up Dykem/Diament etc, but only in the summer.

    I was taught to use yellow Canode as a glaze reducer prior to printing, but find with good side lighting, I don't need other than for final 40ppi efforts.

    L7

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  13. #31
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    Bill,
    just a couple of quick comments.
    On MSDS sheets you do not find all the ingredients (chemicals known to be "inert" can be omitted) and you get at most a range of percentage in the whole mix, which allow the company more or less to keep their trade secrets for the fine tuning of the mix while still respecting the threat class for each of the components (e.g. search the MSDS for Canode and compare the results).

    Second, even the thinnest gloves will take away the sensitivity you need to detect dust particles in the bluing or the part you need to spot. At most, you can use them when during roughing stages, when you're still thousands away from flatness.

    Last, I think that the main difference between a more or less running fluid and a thick paste boils down to spreading techniques. Something more fluid is easier spread with a roller, whereas a thicker paste is somehow trickier to spread uniformly and it likely requires a shammy daub to spread it (and then you get into troubles with dust and dirt accumulating on the shammy).

    Paolo

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  15. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    .....

    Ethylene Glycol "motor" anti-freeze one does NOT want. Toxic in several nasty ways.

    "PEG" POLYEthylene Glycol - "plumbing anti-freeze", one usta buy at RV outlets to winterize a travel trailer or hunting cabin toilet- trap. Not to be mistaken for cran-apple juice and taken as a beverage, but at least a great deal less harmful.
    ......
    The propylene glycol is far less of a problem.

    Regular ethylene glycol would likely be OK, despite being a kidney poison, IF used only as a thinner in smallish quantities. I would NOT advise spraying it.

    Polyethylene glycol is used as a stool softener, it obviously is not particularly toxic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paolo_MD View Post
    Bill,
    just a couple of quick comments.
    On MSDS sheets you do not find all the ingredients (chemicals known to be "inert" can be omitted) and you get at most a range of percentage in the whole mix, which allow the company more or less to keep their trade secrets for the fine tuning of the mix while still respecting the threat class for each of the components (e.g. search the MSDS for Canode and compare the results).
    That's a "given", so "water" is a possible, amines show up, ammonia, not:

    CANODE 2243 DIE SPOTTING INK by INK SPECIALTIES CO INC Material Safety Data Sheet #BPTCD.

    Extract for the blue one. Yellow will have a different pigment:

    Ingredients

    ISOINDOLINE, 1,3-DIMINO-; (PHTHALOCYANINE BLUE PIGMENT)

    CAS: 3468-11-9

    RTECS: NR3500000


    TITANIUM OXIDE; (TITANIUM DIOXIDE PIGMENT)

    CAS: 13463-67-7

    RTECS: XR2275000

    OSHA PEL15 MG/M3 TDUST

    ACGIH TLV: 10 MG/M3 TDUST; 9293


    SULFONATED OILS


    SORBITAN, MONOOLEATE POLYOXYETHYLENE DERIV.;

    CAS: 9005-65-6

    RTECS: WG2932500


    NONYL-PHENOL EMULSIFIER


    Second, even the thinnest gloves will take away the sensitivity you need to detect dust particles in the bluing or the part you need to spot. At most, you can use them when during roughing stages, when you're still thousands away from flatness.
    Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do that."

    Doctor: "So don't DO that."

    Take it on faith there will be particles from the prior pass and stoning. No need to touch them. Clear-way, same as you would if your hand had confirmed that.

    Done. Any stage. Go and have a look amongst the medical field as to how much a human sheds in sebum, complex organic acids, bacteria, fungi, accumulated and embedded soils, parasites and their eggs plus dead skin flakes all our lives. Not to mention hands not as clean as gloves "can be" right in the work zone. Ask any IC wafer worker or any Surgeon. It's THEIR disposable gloves I'm buying in boxes as well as the other Nitriles "painter's" type.

    Hands-on aren't always "cleaning" a surface once into uber-fine-fits. Hands-on are just as likely to be contaminating the surface. Even the neatniks among our grubby shops don't resemble an open-heart surgeon's OR nor an Intel IC wafer-fab clean-room.


    Last, I think that the main difference between a more or less running fluid and a thick paste boils down to spreading techniques. Something more fluid is easier spread with a roller, whereas a thicker paste is somehow trickier to spread uniformly and it likely requires a shammy daub to spread it (and then you get into troubles with dust and dirt accumulating on the shammy).

    Paolo
    Well, yes. Absolutely. Got a 50-or more year-old tube of "Permetex" branded Prussian Blue as accident parked way in the back of a drawer. Only one I recall EVER as was ready-to-use right out of the tube. I still IS, oddly.

    All others need "adjusted" and worked-up a tad. Stuart's Micrometer is basically a "kit". Way too stiff to use directly.

    So yah - when it is being used every day of every week, I can see the attraction of a Canode that saves prep time as well as cleanup time. Time saved is paid-back as more work done and/or more money earned for the steady-working pro.

    Longer STORAGE life is worth more to the INfrequent user, lest we have to order "fresh" supplies each project and discard the not-so-cheap value of over-age goods too often.

    Not a "technical" issue, but still.. money has a vote, "according to prevailing circumstances", too.

  17. #34
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    I've only scraped one machine, but the dykem with thin disposable gloves worked ok. And I had it on hand. Cleaned the plate with mineral spirits. The hardest part was figuring out how to get a smooth even thin application. Eventually I settled on a paper towel, folded into a small square, and burnished the dykem in with it. Toss it every few uses, along with the gloves.
    I lied- the hardest part was lifting that surface plate onto the knee!

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    Way back in the old days before ink rollers we used white hard felt that was about 1/2 thick x 1" x 2" and it was wedge shaped to get under dovetails, or we folded a red rag in forth's then rolled it into a tight roll and wound electrical tape around that and spread on Dykem and red lead, as they were used more and more they got a waxy sheen build up and didn't leave as much lint as when they were new. BUT TAKE it from me those methods are old news. Rollers are they way to go.... Oh I just remembered we would cut the thumb off a pair of leather gloves or use a boot leather cut up into squares to spread it, but when going for precision bearing you HAVE to wipe the ink with your hands to feel for dirt as Paolo said.

    PS : A paint brush with 3/4th of the bristles cut off works great to get bluing under the dovetails. I use this method today. We also got dirty hands...lol When I used to do the IMTS show DAPRA Booth I would rub Canode into my hands and then wash them off with Go-Jo to the amazement to the attendee's. Then flake a small surface plate with the machine and then by hand. Oh I teach all the students to hand scrape and hand 1/2 moon flake the way we used to do it before we bought power scrapers and flakers.
    Last edited by Richard King; 12-19-2019 at 06:15 AM.

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    I can't say I have a lot of experience, but I use Stuarts Micrometer blue and I think it works really well. I read a lot about canode but also about people having issues with it so I got scared of it. Figured I'd be safer to stay with something oil based and suffer blue hands ine exchange for the security. Turns out though it washes off quite easily, WD40 seems to be magic wrt removing it.

    I'm scraping some stuff now though and it's getting hard to see... also getting hard to see where I am scraping so I am in need of contrast paint. I made my own last night, found some red pigment (for concrete) and it worked quite well for contrast and helping me see where I am scraping. Then I discovered in some old PM thread that the pigment might be abrasive so something to be careful with for sure.

    I found out that Stuarts also has a red version last night so I ordered it, they claim it is non abrasive. If it works as well as their blue stuff I will be satisfied. Only got it in a tin though, would've prefered a tube as the tins are notoroius for being messy.

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    Dennis, get some Diamant Tuschierpaste. Comes in a large tube and has a nice deep pigment.

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    I'll keep that in mind for next time, already got the tin ordered so I'll use it up first.

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    This is what the homemade stuff looks like. Use a dauber to put it on since I don't wanna use my breyer with anything but the blue stuff. Some mineral spirits on the dauber helps. Scraping a slight hollow in the middle so it will seat more stably, right now it hinges on the middle instead.





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