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  1. #21
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    Again we see amateurs giving advice. I have leveled and aligned machine tools for over 50 years. I have been paid to do. I have taught mew machine builders in Europe (Denmark, Norway , Sweden, Germany, Austria) and Taiwan. I bet I have aligned more machines then all of the amateurs combined. You come here for advice and you don't have a clue in my opinion. Guessing and .......sigh...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    Again we see amateurs giving advice. I have leveled and aligned machine tools for over 50 years. I have been paid to do. I have taught mew machine builders in Europe (Denmark, Norway , Sweden, Germany, Austria) and Taiwan. I bet I have aligned more machines then all of the amateurs combined. You come here for advice and you don't have a clue in my opinion. Guessing and .......sigh...
    I come here for advise because I don't have a clue. Well no shit. If I had a clue I wouldn't be asking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    Again we see amateurs giving advice. I have leveled and aligned machine tools for over 50 years. I have been paid to do. I have taught mew machine builders in Europe (Denmark, Norway , Sweden, Germany, Austria) and Taiwan. I bet I have aligned more machines then all of the amateurs combined. You come here for advice and you don't have a clue in my opinion. Guessing and .......sigh...
    In principal I gave him the same advice as you did Only you forgot to mention the consequenses of twisting the bed Namely that the tailstock gets out of wack every other position
    There is good reasson to believe the headstock is out of alignment So research that first
    If I had followed your advice on the Weiler Commodor I referred to it would have been a shitty machine Now it is a perfect machine

    The comments you gave here and in other posts gives me the impression that you learned a few tricks in the past but never came to the point where you were able to think for yourself
    You swear on those amateurs and only tell us how good you are without going into the subject If my statements are wrong contradict me That I would respect and if I find you are right I will say so

    Peter

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaiownz View Post
    i checked in the flat way with my precision level and ontop of the saddle all the way down the ways every 100mm aprox.. there where very little flex( not over 0.02/m).
    Thats more ballpark signs that your ways are in decent shape imo.

    This taper the machine is turning, is the larger diameter near or away from the chuck?
    taper.jpg

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    Again we see amateurs giving advice. I have leveled and aligned machine tools for over 50 years. I have been paid to do. I have taught mew machine builders in Europe (Denmark, Norway , Sweden, Germany, Austria) and Taiwan. I bet I have aligned more machines then all of the amateurs combined. You come here for advice and you don't have a clue in my opinion. Guessing and .......sigh...
    Theres two general approaches being put forward here Rich.

    Check the condition of the ways and level as best you can with what you have. If required bump the headstock over if its adjustable.
    or
    Assume that the ways are worn and headstock isnt adjustable and torque the bed till it cuts straight. If that fails then shim the headstock.

    I think this is one of those times where your advice is not so great.

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  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    In principal I gave him the same advice as you did Only you forgot to mention the consequenses of twisting the bed Namely that the tailstock gets out of wack every other position
    There is good reasson to believe the headstock is out of alignment So research that first
    If I had followed your advice on the Weiler Commodor I referred to it would have been a shitty machine Now it is a perfect machine

    The comments you gave here and in other posts gives me the impression that you learned a few tricks in the past but never came to the point where you were able to think for yourself
    You swear on those amateurs and only tell us how good you are without going into the subject If my statements are wrong contradict me That I would respect and if I find you are right I will say so

    Peter
    Your also wrong. I have been doing this my 50+ years plus my Dad learned the trick from a German Journeyman who taught him. I am known as an alignment expert as he was beczuse he invented am alignment instrument. His lathe is worn near the chuck because he uses it there probably 80% of the time and tweaking a "WORN" machine is not going to hurt a dam thing. Now if he was going to have the machine rebuilt and completely scraped then not have to tweek / twist the bed. Even after it's twwisted you have to decide on a happy medium as there is no perfect answer when the bed is off. On many machines with 4 leveling screws under the head you can tweek / twist the head and leave the bed alone. You and others may have rebuild 1 or 2 lathes in your lifetime. I have been rebuilding lathes for 50 + years of my lifetime and know what to do and won't "GUESS" I get paid to give advice and teach. DO you?

    PS: Tom Lipton was a 1 time student as was Adam Booth. They learned how to scrape and we did possible 4 hours of alignment instruction. They still have a lot to learn. The OP said there is no way to twist the bed casting as it is to stiff. That gives me a clue he has no clue and he likes to argue as any good machinist knows a bed can be twisted. I can give examples like this one. Also Lodge and Shipley has a good one, but I have to go to work where I get paid to rebuild lathes. Not some one time want a be who has probably owned 1 lathe in his lifetime. page 11 to 13 http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2261/3760.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon73 View Post
    Thats more ballpark signs that your ways are in decent shape imo.

    This taper the machine is turning, is the larger diameter near or away from the chuck?
    taper.jpg
    Away from the chuck

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaiownz View Post
    Away from the chuck

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    Well, that also points to the headstock being over, pointing away from the operator. Worn ways show as fat near the chuck.

    I think from here id have the gap out and clean up and refit as mentioned earlier in the thread, got to do it anyways so might as well do it first. When youre ready to get into looking for any head adjustment, turn your two collars again to an equal diameters first, this stays in the chuck and can be used as test bar.
    The spindle wants to be 0 - pointing towards the operator a touch. 8b is the more important test.

    spindle-alignment.jpg

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    Demon
    I never had good luck to put a gap back in place accurate Perhaps it is my fault but it is
    I would remove the gearbox for the feeds and take of the headstock and see from there
    Even if you can adjust the headstock you have to loosen the bolts

    I always had good luck with adjusting the head by using 2 indicators on the 2 collar testbar touching where you measured the diam
    Set both indicators to 0 Then adjust the head til the DIFFERENCE on the 2 indicators is half the difference you measured on the testbar
    Works like a charm
    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    Demon
    I never had good luck to put a gap back in place accurate Perhaps it is my fault but it is
    I would remove the gearbox for the feeds and take of the headstock and see from there
    Even if you can adjust the headstock you have to loosen the bolts

    I always had good luck with adjusting the head by using 2 indicators on the 2 collar testbar touching where you measured the diam
    Set both indicators to 0 Then adjust the head til the DIFFERENCE on the 2 indicators is half the difference you measured on the testbar
    Works like a charm
    Peter
    Ah yeah the gap isnt sitting perfect atm according to op, so would have a go at that first, id scrape it in if cleaning and stoning didnt sort it. Would hope the headstock and gearbox wouldnt need removing, as you say just loosen everything up and suss the jacking system that it hopefully has. The colchester I looked at seemed pretty straight forward iirc, an engineer buddy who did his Mascot said it was easy. The bolts might be in the headstock, lid off drain oil, thats how it goes for a couple of bolts on my old DSG.

    That sounds a nice way to indicate, I just swept mine riding the saddle till I got the zero +, tighten down, recheck, job done.
    Last edited by Demon73; 09-19-2019 at 03:51 AM.

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    On the drawings the OP posted you can see the headstock is bolted to the ways from the underside of the ways

    Perer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    Your also wrong. I have been doing this my 50+ years plus my Dad learned the trick from a German Journeyman who taught him. I am known as an alignment expert as he was beczuse he invented am alignment instrument. His lathe is worn near the chuck because he uses it there probably 80% of the time and tweaking a "WORN" machine is not going to hurt a dam thing. Now if he was going to have the machine rebuilt and completely scraped then not have to tweek / twist the bed. Even after it's twwisted you have to decide on a happy medium as there is no perfect answer when the bed is off. On many machines with 4 leveling screws under the head you can tweek / twist the head and leave the bed alone. You and others may have rebuild 1 or 2 lathes in your lifetime. I have been rebuilding lathes for 50 + years of my lifetime and know what to do and won't "GUESS" I get paid to give advice and teach. DO you?

    PS: Tom Lipton was a 1 time student as was Adam Booth. They learned how to scrape and we did possible 4 hours of alignment instruction. They still have a lot to learn. The OP said there is no way to twist the bed casting as it is to stiff. That gives me a clue he has no clue and he likes to argue as any good machinist knows a bed can be twisted. I can give examples like this one. Also Lodge and Shipley has a good one, but I have to go to work where I get paid to rebuild lathes. Not some one time want a be who has probably owned 1 lathe in his lifetime. page 11 to 13 http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2261/3760.pdf
    I'm lurking with interest, downloaded that PDF Maaaaan that's a data intensive download scanned picture but to really nice resolution (thumbs up).

    That's a really interesting technique using that "Pilot bar" when you don't have autocollimators 'n stuff.

    (I'll pinch that one ). Thanks !


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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    On the drawings the OP posted you can see the headstock is bolted to the ways from the underside of the ways

    Perer
    Ah youre right, I missed that

    Just read your post 30 in the other thread. Interesting stuff, just goes to show we dont know till we know eh.

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    bit late to the party but for what its worth...

    Have you checked the two collar turning between centres ?
    Have you had a head stock dead centre to tailstock centre point to point - just a quick indication to see if they line up ? if they do and you cant turn two collars on a bar between centres at the same tool cross slide setting then its the bed. But I am surprised that the pictured ways would give the degree of taper described, so perhaps its not wear of the ways afterall ?

    I wise man once said 'you have to be a detective and investigate everything first - then make your plan - well something like that. Seams that applies here- all too easy to jump in and start adjusting stuff to compensate and in the process create new problems as described by Peter.

    It is a common fault of Boxford lathes (southbend clones) that the headstock mount bolts come lose generally between owners relocating lathes. They are a pain in the rear to tighten due to poor access. They are however, bedded to the V & flat with no adjustment. Same as my Holbrook lathe. The latter is pinned on the V ways as well as bolted down - very thorough.

    Please ignore my input as I too am only a novice, not even done one lathe rebuild yet. We all start somewhere.
    Mat

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    Come over to my Replacing Phenolic thread on here and see how a real pro does it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demon73 View Post
    Ah youre right, I missed that

    Just read your post 30 in the other thread. Interesting stuff, just goes to show we dont know till we know eh.
    Yep I saw that aswell. But they are very hard to get to. I will see about it tomorrow when I got time. Way to busy at the shop so I had to wait a few days TOS SN500S Spindel aligenment

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    Demon
    I never had good luck to put a gap back in place accurate Perhaps it is my fault but it is
    I would remove the gearbox for the feeds and take of the headstock and see from there
    Even if you can adjust the headstock you have to loosen the bolts

    I always had good luck with adjusting the head by using 2 indicators on the 2 collar testbar touching where you measured the diam
    Set both indicators to 0 Then adjust the head til the DIFFERENCE on the 2 indicators is half the difference you measured on the testbar
    Works like a charm
    Peter
    I'm surprised to hear you say that Peter as I had you down as a very careful workman. When you put a gap piece back both elements ( bed and gap piece ) need a very careful light stoning and they need to be clean enough to eat your dinner off. Check very, very carefully that there are no burrs and wipe every bit of the component parts with your bare hand.

    On the subject of the headstock alignment. The ways on the OP's lathe look good, just going off that photo. It's a relatively modern lathe that doesn't look like it's been thrashed so it's unlikely that the ways are worn enough to be a major problem. My guess would be that the headstock isn't in alignment with the ways, could be it's had a substantial crash in the past that's bumped it over. It happens. Therefore it needs adjusting. No big deal, in industry it's a job you perform quite often.

    I've commented on the procedure required many times in the past so forgive me if I don't go into the details again. It's all basic techniques so you don't need to be a genius to perform the operation.

    Somebody else mentioned the position of the DTI. Why have it stuck out on the stand like that ? It needs to be as short as possible. I had a DTI that was fastened to a piece of square bar that acted like a tool shank. It mounted directly into the tool post.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    I'm surprised to hear you say that Peter as I had you down as a very careful workman. When you put a gap piece back both elements ( bed and gap piece ) need a very careful light stoning and they need to be clean enough to eat your dinner off. Check very, very carefully that there are no burrs and wipe every bit of the component parts with your bare hand.

    On the subject of the headstock alignment. The ways on the OP's lathe look good, just going off that photo. It's a relatively modern lathe that doesn't look like it's been thrashed so it's unlikely that the ways are worn enough to be a major problem. My guess would be that the headstock isn't in alignment with the ways, could be it's had a substantial crash in the past that's bumped it over. It happens. Therefore it needs adjusting. No big deal, in industry it's a job you perform quite often.

    I've commented on the procedure required many times in the past so forgive me if I don't go into the details again. It's all basic techniques so you don't need to be a genius to perform the operation.

    Somebody else mentioned the position of the DTI. Why have it stuck out on the stand like that ? It needs to be as short as possible. I had a DTI that was fastened to a piece of square bar that acted like a tool shank. It mounted directly into the tool post.

    Regards Tyrone.
    I am sure it was bumped. I replaced the chuck that was on it when I got it because it was a mess

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    These two bolts are for adjusting. It's now turning a taper under 0.01mm over 100mm. And the ways are still level.

    It's now straight as an arrow. Pretty good for an amateur TOS SN500S Spindel aligenment

    Thanks for the help everyone

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaiownz View Post
    These two bolts are for adjusting. It's now turning a taper under 0.01mm over 100mm. And the ways are still level.

    It's now straight as an arrow. Pretty good for an amateur TOS SN500S Spindel aligenment

    Thanks for the help everyone
    Sweeeet! Chalking that one up as a win for the forum!

    One thing bothers me a bit, If you managed to get it over without loosening the main Headstock bolts, might mean theyre on the loose side? Maybe Tyrone or Peter could comment on that.

    That said, if the machines doing all you need, then maybe let sleeping dogs lie and get it back earning.

    Cheers
    D


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